Tourney Minimal rebuy stack, effects? (1 Viewer)

[Blind Joe]

I've noticed a couple of mentions here and there of people making up rebuy stacks using the highest denom chips. For example, in a T10K with a starting stack of 12/12/5/6 the rebuy stack would be a simple 10 x T1000.

Not being much of a lateral thinker I couldn't see how this would work, (re)starting with 0/0/0/10 in the early rounds when blinds still contain lots of T25s and T100s. Then I realised the rebuying player would make change from the table and it started to make sense.

Not only does it make for less colouring up later on, since there are fewer lower denoms and more higher denoms on the table, it means more stacks and rebuys can be made from the same set. Bit of a light bulb moment for me lol

My question is, does this cause many issues during play, when someone buys in and immediately has to make change to construct a functioning starting stack? Are there any other issues to consider when maximising one's set utility by introducing high denoms early on in a tournament?

 

[Mr Winberg]

From my experience, I (because it's usually me) just excange one or two high denom chips to get small blend of low denom chips. I might give a T1000 and get 8 each of T25 and T100 back. That way I can cover the blinds. When I'm in a pot and don't have the correct chips it's easy enough to verbally bet/call while throwing in a T1000.

I have experienced no issues with this.

If someone started wasting time trying to reconstruct the starting stack, then yes, that would be a (small) issue.

 

[Frogzilla]

Its common and Ive never see it be an issue. Depending on the blind level, they probably won’t have to make change at all from a player directly (if the preflop action exceeds 1k they can get change from the pot at close of action). Or if you had 12/12 start stacks, someone next to them almost assuredly will be able to break down a 1k (500, 4x100, 4x25)

The one reason you might not want to do this is if you didn’t have enough chips to get the start stack you wanted. For example, If you had 200x T25 chips but 20 runners, you can only do 8/x/x/stacks, but 40 T25 not in play. Rebuys are a great way to get a few more small denoms out there.

 

[K ALL IN 9]

When I give out a rebuy stack I omit the lowest denom and just make change with what's on the table. I like more chips on a table in a STT

 

[Mr Winberg]

There might be some time wasting if the players aren't familiar with how to make change. If they always need to have the exact chip count in front of them to make a bet/raise/call, then there will be some time wasting while change is being made during the bet/raise/call. This is, however, an issue with the players, not the rebuy method. The rebuy method just amplifies it.

If they know how to hande this (i.e., either make change with a neighbor beforehand while BOTH of you are NOT in a hand, or verbally declare your action and receive change from the pot AFTER the betting round) then there are no issues.

 

[Blind Joe]

From my experience, I (because it's usually me) just excange one or two high denom chips to get small blend of low denom chips. I might give a T1000 and get 8 each of T25 and T100 back. That way I can cover the blinds. When I'm in a pot and don't have the correct chips it's easy enough to verbally bet/call while throwing in a T1000.

I have experienced no issues with this.

If someone started wasting time trying to reconstruct the starting stack, then yes, that would be a (small) issue.

I like this, it seems very quick and easy to sort. I'd have a minor concern that 8/8 wouldn't be enough smaller denom chips for my group as they love limping, but I suppose they can always change another T1000 if they run out Worth trying out anyway to see how it goes.

Its common and Ive never see it be an issue. Depending on the blind level, they probably won’t have to make change at all from a player directly (if the preflop action exceeds 1k they can get change from the pot at close of action). Or if you had 12/12 start stacks, someone next to them almost assuredly will be able to break down a 1k (500, 4x100, 4x25)

The one reason you might not want to do this is if you didn’t have enough chips to get the start stack you wanted. For example, If you had 200x T25 chips but 20 runners, you can only do 8/x/x/stacks, but 40 T25 not in play. Rebuys are a great way to get a few more small denoms out there.

I currently only have 15 on my invite list and we never get a full turnout so not much of a worry there, unfortunately

 

[Mr Winberg]

but I suppose they can always change another T1000 if they run out

Correct.

What I have tried to educate my players on (with varying success, I might add) is that they may do pretty much what they want, e.g. make change, discuss GOT (no spoilers!), etc, as long as they do it while they are not in a hand, and thereby not disrupting play. If they want to reconstruct their starting stacks and can do so without time being wasted, then fine!

The thing is, if you have 20 minute levels, and 5 minutes are wasted per level, then you have 15 minute levels in practice, and your tournament is more of a turbo than it could have been.

My point is: Players should take their rebuy stack (e.g. 10 x T1000), pick a player who is not in a hand and exchange whatever chips they want. Since none of them are in a hand, they will not be wasting more time exchanging 4 T1000 instead of just 1 T1000.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Hey, I just grew a pair!!

 

[Blind Joe]

What I have tried to educate my players on (with varying success, I might add) is that they may do pretty much what they want, e.g. make change, discuss GOT (no spoilers!), etc, as long as they do it while they are not in a hand, and thereby not disrupting play. If they want to reconstruct their starting stacks and can do so without time being wasted, then fine!

Great advice. Now if only my players weren't intent on being in every single hand

 

[JustinInMN]

Not only does it make for less colouring up later on, since there are fewer lower denoms and more higher denoms on the table, it means more stacks and rebuys can be made from the same set. Bit of a light bulb moment for me lol

These are the two best reasons. As host it's much easier to pluck a few chips of the same denom than 30ish chips of four denoms between hands.

The best way is to find the big stack and ask that player to break one of the chips. That does often lead to the good natured "buying your own chips back" deal.

I also like the mention of changing a big pot next time it comes up.

If that person plays a pot you can teach the table to pull a bet aside to track how "light" he his and then he can either won the pot or trade the chip with the winner and recieve change.

Lot of ways to handle this. But to recap, there is little point in adding chips that will be colored up and using big chips lets you accommodate lots of rebuys for adding relatively few chips.

Hey, I just grew a pair!! View attachment 280735

It's hard to make a pair in hold'em.

 

[Mr Winberg]

It's hard to make a pair in hold'em.

Tell me about it, I had to bullsh*t for 100 frickin posts!

 

[Blind Joe]

These are the two best reasons. As host it's much easier to pluck a few chips of the same denom than 30ish chips of four denoms between hands.

I've only hosted a couple of times and only been to home tourneys where the organisation was very lax so the first time I hosted I ended up with starting stacks of 25/15/10... 50 chips! And my rebuy stacks were exact replicas!

I just thought plenty of small chips would be useful for players. It was a 5/10 tourney and I had nearly 400 T5s so it never occurred to me to do things differently but I'm definitely learning that there are better and more efficient ways of utilising my set!

 

[Poker Zombie]

While giving a rebuy in just big chips is frugal for the chip owner, It can slow the game down if the big stack is at the opposite end of the table, the rebuying player is also the dealer, or the changemakers block/interfere with the dealing.

I pre-build my rebuys stacks in chip tubes before the game, so that takes no time out of the game. I build the rebuy stacks using all the chips that are in play at the end of the rebuy period, which is every denom except the T25. If I am running short on small denom chips, some tubes will hold more big denom chips, but I try to minimize the number of rebuy stacks that require changing multiple denoms - and those rebuy stacks are handed out last.

 

[Darson]

For me, a lot of this depends on the number of players you start with and the number of smaller chips in the starting stacks. Our monthly game is a T10k tourney with max of two rebuys per player and we see lots of rebuys. I like to hand out at least 12/12/5/6 starting stacks. I will pre-build 8 or 10 starting stacks and we usually are 6-8 players so the first few rebuys will be with spare starting stacks. After that I'll hand out 10x1k until they're all on the table and then 2xT5k.

This works well because the use of all the pre-built starting stacks for the first rebuys will mean there are enough smaller chips on the table such that change making is easy. And once you get into the higher value chip rebuys, there are also plenty chips on the table to make change. Since getting felted always happens against someone who had you covered, this is the best person to get change from once you get your rebuy stack.

We never find it a problem and I would say that having a small number of higher value chips tends to promote looser play - for example, if someone raises 300 the next raise may be 1k because that's the chips he had after rebuy.

 

[DoubleEagle]

For a T10k tourney our re-buys are two 5k chips. Much easier to deal with the re-buys and the chip-ups are a lot less work. There should already be enough smaller denomination chips on the table. The big stacks can easily make change for the re-buy chips.

 

[Poker Zombie]

the chip-ups are a lot less work.

I hear this from people that use the 1 or 2 chip rebuy. I need to stop by your game and help you with color-ups. I find them to be remarkably easy, and 3 tables takes all of 2 minutes - less if one player at the tables buys up chips before I get there.

I must have some color-up secret that I don't realize, but should be teaching people. Maybe it's because I race-off chips instead of rounding?

 

[Blind Joe]

I pre-build my rebuys stacks in chip tubes before the game, so that takes no time out of the game. I build the rebuy stacks using all the chips that are in play at the end of the rebuy period, which is every denom except the T25. If I am running short on small denom chips, some tubes will hold more big denom chips, but I try to minimize the number of rebuy stacks that require changing multiple denoms - and those rebuy stacks are handed out last.

That's what I did last time for a T7500. My starting stacks were 16/11/6/3 then I had some pre-built early rebuy stacks of 12/12/6/3 and later rebuy stacks of 8/8/7/3 when the smaller chips were less important.

Having pre-built stacks did make rebuying quick and eliminated the need to make change but I'm going to test run large chip rebuy stacks to see if they're disruptive and/or make a positive change to colouring up.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I occasionally use 16/x/x/x/ starting stacks, but usually use 12/x/x/x. It really depends on how many people are at a table.

I have played in a MTT game where the chip leader was moved to another table, and took the lion's share of small chips with him. When we had rebuys at our table, someone had to go to the next room to get change.

not disruptive at all

 

[Blind Joe]

I occasionally use 16/x/x/x/ starting stacks, but usually use 12/x/x/x. It really depends on how many people are at a table.

I have played in a MTT game where the chip leader was moved to another table, and took the lion's share of small chips with him. When we had rebuys at our table, someone had to go to the next room to get change.

not disruptive at all

Point taken, and one I'll certainly bear in mind if we ever go MTT. We're usually only 6-8 handed but if all our players were available on one night we would have to up to two tables.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Maybe it's because I race-off chips instead of rounding?

How can racing off chips possibly take less time than rounding up?

 

[JustinInMN]

I pre-build my rebuys stacks in chip tubes before the game, so that takes no time out of the game

I love this idea too, but the downside is putting extra chips on play that will just come out soon. But as you have said elsewhere, not a huge deal if you know what you are doing

How can racing off chips possibly take less time than rounding up?

Some people are really bad at math.

 

[BGinGA]

I have played in a MTT game where the chip leader was moved to another table, and took the lion's share of small chips with him. When we had rebuys at our table, someone had to go to the next room to get change.

IF that's true, then the TD was doing a pretty crappy job.

 

[BGinGA]

I've done it several ways -- using full starting stacks for re-buys, small-stacks for re-buys (no T25/T100 chips), and high-denoms-only for re-buys.

If at full capacity, I prefer the high-denom method, as there are already sufficient chips in play by design. If the field is not full, then the small-stack approach works best imo (if you have the chips to support it).

But coloring up fewer chips is ALWAYS faster than coloring-up more chips, that's just simple arithmetic. And racing is NOT faster than rounding.

3 tables takes all of 2 minutes

I also call BS on this.... it doesn't take long, but 2 minutes for three tables is stretching the truth a bit far.

 

[Frogzilla]

My starting stacks were 16/11/6/3 then I had some pre-built early rebuy stacks of 12/12/6/3 and later rebuy stacks of 8/8/7/3 when the smaller chips were less important.

Whoaaa. Do you not have same problem with people asking for stack counts during a hand? Any all-in and invariably the “how much is it” comes from someone hollywooding his missed flush. Even without an actual all in, plenty of “just to see how much they have behind” requests of stack counts, and every now and then someone will actually count it out. These counts can be excruciating to witness when low denoms avg 12 per player, I can’t imagine with 20+ average.

 

[BGinGA]

Counting chips in stacks is easy.

 

[Frogzilla]

Counting chips in stacks is easy.

For you and me, sure. But I don’t always get to play with a bunch of you’s and me’s

 

[BGinGA]

Agreed, but that's what competent dealers and TDs are for.

 

[Poker Zombie]

IF that's true, then the TD was doing a pretty crappy job.

We use the next BB into the worst possible seat method. If the player that hoards the T25s gets moved, he gets moved. We don't demand he make change first, and the TD (player/TD) may be at another table.

If you use a different method, I'm all ears (eyes, since I'm reading).

 

[BGinGA]

We use the next BB into the worst possible seat method. If the player that hoards the T25s gets moved, he gets moved. We don't demand he make change first, and the TD (player/TD) may be at another table.

If you use a different method, I'm all ears (eyes, since I'm reading).

It's not the TD's problem if the big stack gets moved; that's random selection.

However, it's certainly the TD's issue if he gives the re-buy player two large denomination chips on a table where already he knows that there's no available change, instead of getting it broken down on the way to the table. That's simply good tournament management.

 

[JustinInMN]

However, it's certainly the TD's issue if he gives the re-buy player two large denomination chips on a table where already he knows that there's no available change, instead of getting it broken down on the way to the table. That's simply good tournament management.

So the suggestion is the td should take it upon himself to break one of the big chips at the other table before seating?