Ruling? Extra card. (1 Viewer)

[T_Chan]

Wondering what the proper ruling is here.

8 handed, preflop. Cut off calls, next to act raises 3x. Suddenly the SB declares that he has 3 cards but hasn't looked at any of them.

What's the ruling?

 

[Mr Tree]

Wondering what the proper ruling is here.

8 handed, preflop. Cut off calls, next to act raises 3x. Suddenly the SB declares that he has 3 cards but hasn't looked at any of them.

What's the ruling?

Misdeal. There’s no way to guarantee the SB isn’t lying and about to play a hand of pineapple. Since everyone’s bet is in front of them returnbeta to senders and redeal.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

There's been substantial action, though (call and raise). What rules are being followed? If we were using RROP and following it strictly, I'd assume it's a dead hand if it's Hold'Em.

DEAD HANDS
1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).
(c) In stud, when facing a bet, you pick your upcards off the table, turn your upcards facedown, or mix your upcards
and downcards together.
(d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game (except at stud a hand missing the
final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live). [See
Section 16 - “Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on the stud portion of this rule.]
(e) You act on a hand with a joker as a holecard in a game not using a joker. (A player who acts on a hand without
looking at a card assumes the liability of finding an improper card, as given in Irregularities, rule #8.)
(f) You have the clock on you when facing a bet or raise and exceed the specified time limit.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

This happened to me at Brantford Casino. Hand dead.

 

[v1pe]

His hand only is dead?

 

[upNdown]

Right, SB hand is dead, everybody else plays on

 

[DJ Mack]

This is why I always count my hand upon receipt, even though I usually don’t look at them until it’s my turn to act.

Sucks to have your hand ruled dead. Sucks even more when you are one of the blinds.

 

[BGinGA]

Correct, hand with incorrect number of cards is ruled dead if two or more player actions have occurred. If less than two actions have occurred before discovery, it's a misdeal.


Action doesn't have to be 'substantial', whatever that means. Two folds count as two actions, and the hand is dead.

 

[jja412]

His hand only is dead?

Yes. Hand with too many cards is killed. Seen it a few times at the casino. Both times same ruling.

 

[Payback]

Dead hand and a sorry to the SB.

 

[DJ Mack]

Yes. Hand with too many cards is killed. Seen it a few times at the casino. Both times same ruling.

Suffice it to say the dealer toke is probably a bit lighter than it would have otherwise been.

 

[v1pe]

Same thing happened on LATB last week I think. Joey Ingram was dealt 5 cards in PLO and didn't notice the 5th card until he had already put in a bet (or more, can't remember).

 

[CdnBeerLover]

Action doesn't have to be 'substantial', whatever that means. Two folds count as two actions, and the hand is dead.

We follow PokerTDA guidelines for our games (we generally play tournaments). Rule 35d states that a misdeal cannot happen after substantial action occurs, and rule 36 defines it as

Substantial Action is either A) any 2 actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds) or B) any combination of 3 actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, fold). Posted blinds do not count towards SA. See Rules 35-D & 44-B.

See example 1b for Rule 38 in the illustration section for this situation (dead hand due to substantial action occurring and 3 cards discovered in the player's hand).

Rule 38: Burns After Substantial Action
...

Example 1-B: Same game and initial deal. Seat 3 (UTG) folds and Seat 4 calls, completing substantial action. Seat 5 then realizes she has 3 cards and her hand is dead because SA has occurred. The dealer will burn one card and then put out the flop. The dealer will not consider Seat 5’s third card as the burn and put out the flop without a burn off the stub.

RROP is different. If you are following RROP:

MISDEALS
1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player
whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on
their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

So, it depends on the rules you are following.

 

[T_Chan]

Great, thanks for the replies everyone. I thought as much. I happen to be walking by the table when it happened. Players stopped me to ask what to do, I asked them to give me a second to think then a few guys started shouting misdeal, one of which had a pretty big voice who also proceeded to muck his cards (he was in the BB). Once he mucked everyone else followed.

He turns to me and says "come on Tony, you do this all the time, that's a misdeal". I tell him that actually since there was action, the other guys hand would be dead and the rest of the hand should have played out. He shrugs and they redeal. Next time I'll know without hesitation.

 

[T_Chan]

Misdeal. There’s no way to guarantee the SB isn’t lying and about to play a hand of pineapple. Since everyone’s bet is in front of them returnbeta to senders and redeal.

Sure enough, after everyone started to muck their cards, the SB flips over the bottom 2 of the 3 cards which is AQ, top card being 6 which some of us thought should be put back onto the deck and used as the burn.

 

[MatB]

MISDEALS
1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player
whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on
their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

So, it depends on the rules you are following.

I like this rule because your other post infers that just by being dealt the wrong number of cards its a dead hand. Before any action has taken place.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

I like this rule because your other post infers that just by being dealt the wrong number of cards its a dead hand. Before any action has taken place.

(y) :thumbsup:

I should not have posted the dead hand portion of the rules without also posting the misdeal section that immediately precedes it in RRoP (http://www.homepokertourney.com/docs/rulebook/roberts-rules-of-poker-fullsize.pdf is the version I'm referencing).

 

[MatB]

(y) :thumbsup:

I should not have posted the dead hand portion of the rules without also posting the misdeal section that immediately precedes it in RRoP (http://www.homepokertourney.com/docs/rulebook/roberts-rules-of-poker-fullsize.pdf is the version I'm referencing).

I just read it, yes looks like your posts were flipped ! it all makes sense now ..(y) :thumbsupy) :thumbsup: