OP
OP
Could they stagger them like this? Don’t know if there have to be straight alleyways on both axes.
Table Shapes (a bit of a rant) (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Taghkanic
- Start date
Could they stagger them like this? Don’t know if there have to be straight alleyways on both axes.
OP
OP
But in any case, it would be quite possible to have an elliptical table which had a smaller footprint than a stadium table. For example, here is a pedestal elliptical which is 95" x 43", which would fit well inside the footprint of most stadium tables:
http://modloft.com/store/Dining-Tables/Sullivan-Dining-Table#opi2617854881
Lastly, it seems worth noting again that Hold ’Em is a relatively recent poker phenomenon. Casinos and other poker rooms were dominated by seven-card stud for decades, and as a practical matter that cannot be spread for nine- or ten people.
If you look at pictures of Vegas games in the ’30s-’80s, you almost never see more than seven at a table. Yet casinos were happy to spread poker games long before Hold ’Em made it feasible to have 9+ players at each table... So I assume that where there was a will for a room to question its assumptions, there would be a way.
http://modloft.com/store/Dining-Tables/Sullivan-Dining-Table#opi2617854881
Lastly, it seems worth noting again that Hold ’Em is a relatively recent poker phenomenon. Casinos and other poker rooms were dominated by seven-card stud for decades, and as a practical matter that cannot be spread for nine- or ten people.
If you look at pictures of Vegas games in the ’30s-’80s, you almost never see more than seven at a table. Yet casinos were happy to spread poker games long before Hold ’Em made it feasible to have 9+ players at each table... So I assume that where there was a will for a room to question its assumptions, there would be a way.
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OP
OP
Anyway, my ideal poker room would look like this:
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I think that set-up would be acceptable, but I am not convinced that the footprint can be made smaller. I'm at work right now so I don't have access to my table building program which accounts for legroom under the table. The table you show would only seat 8 people. The end-caps would be knocking knees (my program accounts for at least 2' under the table for each seat). In a casino, stadium tables often seat 11 people (10 players and 1 dealer).
In addition, dealers already have to stretch to pull in antes, bets and cards from the end seats. Pushing them back - even by a few inches on the long end of an ellipse - makes their job even tougher.
Sure, 8 player tables would be great for poker rooms, but that would cut into the house's already slim profit on poker. I'd rather see stadium tables over paying a higher rake.
OP
OP
Again, I think quality of play and player comfort ought to be a priority over marginal changes in a casino’s poker room profit. I see rooms cutting corners on all kinds of stuff, and players noticing and complaining about it—this can’t be good for their bottom line in the long run, as it makes people more inclined to find action elsewhere.
P.S. Where do you find casinos with tables with 2' of clearance under the table per player? There is nothing like that where I’ve played. I’d be delighted to find even a foot overhang on the table.
P.S. Where do you find casinos with tables with 2' of clearance under the table per player? There is nothing like that where I’ve played. I’d be delighted to find even a foot overhang on the table.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Without the program, I cannot recall if it's a full 2' or if it was 2' total (ass to knee). It's been 6 years since I built the 3rd table (and I got a non-approving look when I suggested the game was about to grow to 4 tables). We now paired the guest-list down to 2 tables with the 3rd table as overflow.
I cannot disagree that comfort should be a priority, but sadly it's not. Poker rooms flourished during the boom as a way to get every Tom, Dick, and Harry in the door. It was like a perk for patrons and the casino got to make a little money. Win-win. When the boom ended, many poker rooms could not justify the cost to floor-space. I don't get how more slot machines make more money. There's more of them sitting empty than full, but I guess they require very little staff to run.
People aren't really going to go to another casino and spend more money on their slots because they don't like the comfort of the card room. You want comfort? Slots now have headrests, armrests, in-headrest speakers, lumbar support, swivels, and thick cushions. I'm waiting for them to add back massagers. You can fall asleep while the casino vacuums your wallet dry.
I cannot disagree that comfort should be a priority, but sadly it's not. Poker rooms flourished during the boom as a way to get every Tom, Dick, and Harry in the door. It was like a perk for patrons and the casino got to make a little money. Win-win. When the boom ended, many poker rooms could not justify the cost to floor-space. I don't get how more slot machines make more money. There's more of them sitting empty than full, but I guess they require very little staff to run.
People aren't really going to go to another casino and spend more money on their slots because they don't like the comfort of the card room. You want comfort? Slots now have headrests, armrests, in-headrest speakers, lumbar support, swivels, and thick cushions. I'm waiting for them to add back massagers. You can fall asleep while the casino vacuums your wallet dry.
OP
OP
Agreed that poker is more of a loss-leader (or small profit-leader) for casinos. A casino feels lame if it doesn't have a card room. It’s mainly just for appearances.
But as far as them not being able to make changes that improves the appeal of the game... Well, I see casinos trying, but putting all their effort in the wrong places.
How often have you entered a casino card room and seen every table full? I’m in upstate New York, and the nearest casino is pretty new and small—just 16 tables. I have maybe seen them all going at once maybe once, ever. More typical, even on weekends, is 8-12 tables. They could afford to lose a few tables, if that made things more appealing. I don’t think they really need fewer, just a better design to the room, and more reasons to keep coming back.
What really kills their profit (at this particular place, at least, from what I’ve observed) is that the pool of 1/2 players is vastly larger than 2/5 players, of which there are not many regulars; and there are only a handful of people who play higher than that. There is no private room or higher stakes action. Maybe once in a blue moon they ask if there are people interested in 3/6 or 5/10. They can’t control the local demographics, but I would argue that if the place felt better, they would attract more money.
Meanwhile, I see card rooms making terrible industrial and aesthetic design decisions constantly.
For example, at one casino I frequent, they installed these crude plywood boxes under the rail at each seat, protruding about 3-4" under the table. These are intended as a place to rest a cell phone, and there is some sort of power cord (but without adapters, which you have to get elsewhere) inside the box. They look like someone’s 7th grade shop project.
Almost no one ever uses these. Rather, everyone complains about them bumping against their legs. If you are any larger than a Kentucky Derby jockey, they make it very difficult to find a comfortable position at the table. This is compounded with a very shallow space between the table base and the edge of the table, and a metal foot rail which further limits the footspace.
That such stuff can happen in a multimillion-dollar casino design, while we’re expected to believe they can’t afford to do things right, is frustrating. It also makes me doubt that they could not implement other changes, since they are willing to totally disrupt the basic comfort of sitting at a poker table, for the sake of a gadget almost no one uses. (I guess they could not figure out how to do a simple, flush-mounted USB outlet in a table.)
But as far as them not being able to make changes that improves the appeal of the game... Well, I see casinos trying, but putting all their effort in the wrong places.
How often have you entered a casino card room and seen every table full? I’m in upstate New York, and the nearest casino is pretty new and small—just 16 tables. I have maybe seen them all going at once maybe once, ever. More typical, even on weekends, is 8-12 tables. They could afford to lose a few tables, if that made things more appealing. I don’t think they really need fewer, just a better design to the room, and more reasons to keep coming back.
What really kills their profit (at this particular place, at least, from what I’ve observed) is that the pool of 1/2 players is vastly larger than 2/5 players, of which there are not many regulars; and there are only a handful of people who play higher than that. There is no private room or higher stakes action. Maybe once in a blue moon they ask if there are people interested in 3/6 or 5/10. They can’t control the local demographics, but I would argue that if the place felt better, they would attract more money.
Meanwhile, I see card rooms making terrible industrial and aesthetic design decisions constantly.
For example, at one casino I frequent, they installed these crude plywood boxes under the rail at each seat, protruding about 3-4" under the table. These are intended as a place to rest a cell phone, and there is some sort of power cord (but without adapters, which you have to get elsewhere) inside the box. They look like someone’s 7th grade shop project.
Almost no one ever uses these. Rather, everyone complains about them bumping against their legs. If you are any larger than a Kentucky Derby jockey, they make it very difficult to find a comfortable position at the table. This is compounded with a very shallow space between the table base and the edge of the table, and a metal foot rail which further limits the footspace.
That such stuff can happen in a multimillion-dollar casino design, while we’re expected to believe they can’t afford to do things right, is frustrating. It also makes me doubt that they could not implement other changes, since they are willing to totally disrupt the basic comfort of sitting at a poker table, for the sake of a gadget almost no one uses. (I guess they could not figure out how to do a simple, flush-mounted USB outlet in a table.)
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I would say something obvious, like talk to the room manager, but I suspect those boxes were a suggestion by a wildly vocal and annoying person. If you see anyone use it, smack him - he's probably the guilty party.
OP
OP
Oh, plenty of people have complained (to the dealers, room managers, etc.) Everyone shrugs like “not my department.”
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Poker room "updates" with complete crap. Then nobody takes credit/responsibility for the solution...
Optimal home game solution is obviously a 10-person round with a 6-axis robot mounted to the ceiling above the table. Just tell Alexa who won the pot and she'll have the robot push you your chips. Could probably deal for you too.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
10 person round donut-shaped table with a 6' redhead bikini model in the center named Alexa. She might block some views, but who would care?
I have to make do with a kitchen and dining room table that are both rectangular (82"x42" and 94"x42" respectively). I have a third top I can bring in, but not more than 2x/yr that is 96"x42".
Since dealing from one end to the other is not ideal, my solution is to have two permanent dealers in the middle of all 3 tables. That works pretty well, but the quality of dealers varies. They are volunteers. Other's help with shuffling.
All the tables can hold 10, and the 2 larger ones could hold 11 (or even 12 though I've never done that). I primarily allow 20, but if I have 21, we will play with 10 and 11.
An elliptical table that was 96" long and 42-48" wide would give better site views and still have distances not too far for 4-6 players to stretch, but I don't see how it could have more leg room.
There are trade offs no matter what you do.
In a way, I'm lucky. My wife dictated the table shape by what she wanted for eating tables. The kitchen is a little cramped for 10, but it fine for fewer and great for 8. The dining room has plenty of room end to end, but due to the China cabinet, it is a little crammed side to side, though when player are seating and not moving around, there is plenty of room. My third table was a table top at the office where a leg broke, and a new table was the choice over trying to fix the leg, so I volunteered to get rid of the top. Two half-moon pedestals provide the base. Since I didn't have a choice of either sizes or shapes, I've had to make do. Most like my setup. If some don't like it, they've never mentioned it, perhaps because even if they didn't like it, it can't really be changed.
Further, when we play, we use the dining (94x42) as the main, the kitchen (82x42) as the secondary, and the living room (96x42 oval) as the tertiary table. The best table for play is the tertiary table, but it's the most difficult room to play in. We have a small living room for the size of house as it was designed for a family of 6 with the TV and in my case aquarium.
I'm also lucky in a sense that I have no woodworking skills (or any other mechanical skills for that matter). Thus I have to look for solutions that work without those. That may limit my choices (OK, it DOES limit my choices, but I don't really know any better!), but my wife wouldn't be wild about me modifying tables and the space anyway. She also dictates the eating chairs, so I've supplemented with nice padded folding chairs (8) and nice banquet chairs (10) that I store in the garage when not being used for poker. Our kitchen table can feed 6, though the kitchen only has 4 chairs in normal use, and the dining room table 8 chairs, so I have those chairs to use. I supplement the kitchen with 4-6 folding chairs, the dining with 2 banquet chairs, and when the 3rd table comes out, 6 banquet and 4 folding chairs.
My two dealers get the most comfortable chairs at the secondary and tertiary tables.
I think sight lines are pretty good, though they could be better.
In my experience, Zombie is right about what happens with tables of 4 and 5. I've done that a few times over the years, and the 4 player table has, ever time I recall, been the one to lose a player. The challenge with tables limited to 8 is this problem. Those at the table of 4 have a significantly reduced chance of making the next level. That could give the host a big advantage if the table of 5 was where future check-ins might take place so the host sits there. The host might be the only person to know of that advantage. If I were a guest where that was the arrangement, I'd figure out how to do something for the host at the 5 person table so I always got there!
Since dealing from one end to the other is not ideal, my solution is to have two permanent dealers in the middle of all 3 tables. That works pretty well, but the quality of dealers varies. They are volunteers. Other's help with shuffling.
All the tables can hold 10, and the 2 larger ones could hold 11 (or even 12 though I've never done that). I primarily allow 20, but if I have 21, we will play with 10 and 11.
An elliptical table that was 96" long and 42-48" wide would give better site views and still have distances not too far for 4-6 players to stretch, but I don't see how it could have more leg room.
There are trade offs no matter what you do.
In a way, I'm lucky. My wife dictated the table shape by what she wanted for eating tables. The kitchen is a little cramped for 10, but it fine for fewer and great for 8. The dining room has plenty of room end to end, but due to the China cabinet, it is a little crammed side to side, though when player are seating and not moving around, there is plenty of room. My third table was a table top at the office where a leg broke, and a new table was the choice over trying to fix the leg, so I volunteered to get rid of the top. Two half-moon pedestals provide the base. Since I didn't have a choice of either sizes or shapes, I've had to make do. Most like my setup. If some don't like it, they've never mentioned it, perhaps because even if they didn't like it, it can't really be changed.
Further, when we play, we use the dining (94x42) as the main, the kitchen (82x42) as the secondary, and the living room (96x42 oval) as the tertiary table. The best table for play is the tertiary table, but it's the most difficult room to play in. We have a small living room for the size of house as it was designed for a family of 6 with the TV and in my case aquarium.
I'm also lucky in a sense that I have no woodworking skills (or any other mechanical skills for that matter). Thus I have to look for solutions that work without those. That may limit my choices (OK, it DOES limit my choices, but I don't really know any better!), but my wife wouldn't be wild about me modifying tables and the space anyway. She also dictates the eating chairs, so I've supplemented with nice padded folding chairs (8) and nice banquet chairs (10) that I store in the garage when not being used for poker. Our kitchen table can feed 6, though the kitchen only has 4 chairs in normal use, and the dining room table 8 chairs, so I have those chairs to use. I supplement the kitchen with 4-6 folding chairs, the dining with 2 banquet chairs, and when the 3rd table comes out, 6 banquet and 4 folding chairs.
My two dealers get the most comfortable chairs at the secondary and tertiary tables.
I think sight lines are pretty good, though they could be better.
In my experience, Zombie is right about what happens with tables of 4 and 5. I've done that a few times over the years, and the 4 player table has, ever time I recall, been the one to lose a player. The challenge with tables limited to 8 is this problem. Those at the table of 4 have a significantly reduced chance of making the next level. That could give the host a big advantage if the table of 5 was where future check-ins might take place so the host sits there. The host might be the only person to know of that advantage. If I were a guest where that was the arrangement, I'd figure out how to do something for the host at the 5 person table so I always got there!
No wonder you spend half your time upstate - gorgeous.
EventHorizonVII
Two Pair
Biggest question I am facing. Round or oval.
Basement has room for oval but I am going back and forth. Ultimately I want to do Platinum SSC with a wood raceway and a purple lighted rail. Just trying to decide on arm rest color and wood color. Thinking about doing the raceway in a grey stain.
Basement has room for oval but I am going back and forth. Ultimately I want to do Platinum SSC with a wood raceway and a purple lighted rail. Just trying to decide on arm rest color and wood color. Thinking about doing the raceway in a grey stain.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Ellipse is the perfect balance between round and oval. Because it doesn't have straight-aways, it doesn't have the blind spots of the oval. But its hard to get 10 players around a round table.
I have a 7' ellipse that seats 8 perfectly, but can handle a tight 10.
I have a 7' ellipse that seats 8 perfectly, but can handle a tight 10.
gopherblue
Straight Flush
^^^ This. And for the love of all that is holy, no wood raceway.
EventHorizonVII
Two Pair
I like the idea of ellipse but haven't found any plans or means of making a jig for it. I've read folks using CNC machines but I don't have access to one and not sure what the mill cost would be for it. Still, they do look fantastic.
That's similar to what I want to do but a solid raceway with a grey wood stain like this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Timeline...essed-Grey-Wood-Panels-6-Pack-00957/205791534
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WedgeRock
Royal Flush
I used the two nail method and cut with a jig saw...
RowdyRawhide
Full House
Pretty sure Rockler sells a router jig that will do circles and ellipses
Edit: it appears the longest axis only goes to 52 inches
Edit: it appears the longest axis only goes to 52 inches
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
IIRC, there are measurements that can be done that result in arcs from circles to firm the ellipse... So if you have a circle jig, it can be done.
Jambine
Full House
Here is a graphic of the pencil and nail method that Eric mentioned above. I've used this on two tables and it works great.
You don't really need the grommet, just hold the pencil straight up
EventHorizonVII
Two Pair
Here is a graphic of the pencil and nail method that Eric mentioned above. I've used this on two tables and it works great.
You don't really need the grommet, just hold the pencil straight up
Thank you! Ordered the kit from build your own poker table today.
Jambine
Full House
I should have included a warning here. String stretches. Go around the pattern at least twice but DON'T put too much outward pressure on the string (your pattern will just keep getting bigger)
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Piano wire and picture hanging wire (or any thin gauge wire) does not stretch...
bentax1978
4 of a Kind
Depending on how thin the wire is, and how hard you pull, it could actually stretch enough to be an issue.
RowdyRawhide
Full House
bentax1978
4 of a Kind
1" braided cable won't stretch......at least not with a pencil
No argument there!
Jambine
Full House
And yes, even piano wire will stretch if you really crank on it. Don't try to go above a High "C" (it will probably be sharp)
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