Scarney Player Gets Mad (2 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

I play Scarney (Georgie in my group) semi-weekly with a guy who's familiar with all kinds of games, not a novice by any means. Pretty sure he even used to play the precursor to Scarney, called Heaven and Hell.

Whenever he has a hand get killed because he failed to discard on time, it bugs him so much that he cashes out right afterward and goes home. Doesn't play a single other hand, just bounces right away. I've watched this play out at least three times. He tries to act like he just decided to leave for whatever reason, but it's pretty clear he's upset. One of those times, he had just ordered a whole draft beer from the bar. Upon realizing his hand was dead, he downed the entire thing in one huge, dramatic chug and left.

Anyone else have a player like this or any hilarious stories about people getting tilted by the kill board?

 

[TheBigTater]

No hilarious story but when dealing Scarney (any variant) I always take a little extra time and announce what cards are dead multiple times between f/t/r. If after all that someone still has a dead hand well, that's on them. Lessons are hard & expensive when you don't pay attention.

I've killed my own hand by missing a discard, it happens, live with it.

 

[inca911]

I recommend only announcing dead cards in Scarney. Reveal and announce bottom board before top to give players a fraction of additional time. Never verbalize the top board to emphasize discards as revealed. After top reveal, verbalize all bottom cards again as a group reminder. Also, once two players are all-in and hands are tabled (i.e., no further action) the fouling aspect is turned off to prevent procedural “fouls”. Just my $0.02.

Note that any prematurely exposed card goes on the bottom, to enable an 8 player game requiring all 52 cards in the deck.

 

[Jimulacrum]

No hilarious story but when dealing Scarney (any variant) I always take a little extra time and announce what cards are dead multiple times between f/t/r. If after all that someone still has a dead hand well, that's on them. Lessons are hard & expensive when you don't pay attention.

I've killed my own hand by missing a discard, it happens, live with it.

Oh, I've done it too, more than once, usually when I have a solid high hand that is occupying my attention. I'm never happy about it, obviously, but I don't get mad either.

 

[TheBigTater]

Reveal bottom board before top to give players a fraction of additional time.

100% agree here.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Also, once two players are all-in and hands are tabled (I.e., no further action) the fouling aspect is turned off to prevent procedural “fouls”. Just my $0.02.

We actually changed this rule via verbal vote a few weeks ago, so we now follow what you described. Previously there had been hands ruled dead because, say, they got all-in on the flop and missed a turn discard en route to showdown. The fouling rule no longer serves a purpose once the action is closed (for everyone, not just for the all-in player) and thus doesn't need to be enforced.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Reveal and announce bottom board before top to give players a fraction of additional time.

We deal this game like a normal flop game (i.e., we deal each round one at a time, don't deal the whole board face-down ahead of time), so revealing the kill board first would be a bit of a confusing step that interrupts the deal.

But we do read out the kill board at each stage, often more than once, and most of us avoid reading off the top board just to be safe. Can be nasty when people hear it wrong and expose that they have a set or whatever.

 

[RadicusScout]

But we do read out the kill board at each stage, often more than once

Yep. That's what we do as well. It sounds like the scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail because everyone at the table pretty much shouts out the dead card.

Just curious, if a player forgot to discard a dead card that was killed on the flop but remembered after the turn (for example) - is that hand still alive? We play it as long as all dead cards are discarded before the showdown the hand plays. Is that correct?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Just curious, if a player forgot to discard a dead card that was killed on the flop but remembered after the turn (for example) - is that hand still alive? We play it as long as all dead cards are discarded before the showdown the hand plays. Is that correct?

If you still have a card in your hand that came up on the kill board in an earlier round, your hand is dead. As far as I know, this is standard for Scarney. I've never heard of anyone playing it like you've described.

I've entertained the idea of everyone just getting rid of their dead cards at showdown, but it removes a significant element that I like from the game (using card counts to judge which side people are going for). If playing this way, I'd recommend just doing it all as part of showdown instead of trying to establish a cutoff right before showdown. Like let all the bets happen, and then give everyone a chance to dump their dead cards (face-up, in a manner that allows for inspection) as the first step of showdown. I'm not adamantly opposed to this; it's like Scarney with training wheels.

We play the traditional way, but the way we have enforced this is a little loose; players have until the next card lands on the board to get the dead cards from the prior round out of their hands. Not often, but once in a while, a player will forget during the round and discard after he has already acted, or even after everyone has acted but the next board card isn't up yet.

I have mixed feelings about this. It can get messy if you, say, make a big bet with a strong low, but now the guy to your left realizes he has to discard something, and knowing his proper card count might have changed your action. A player looking for unfair advantages may realize that he can hold out on discards until the last second and thus get weaker low hands to put in bets before they realize that player only has 1 or 2 cards. So far, no one has abused this in my crew, but it's a concern in the back of my mind.

 

[dpeks13]

I usually just do whatever @inca911 tells me to do. Works out well for me.

 

[CraigT78]

@Eriks played poker Internationally and sat out of every orbit of Scarney. Does that count??

 

[CraigT78]

But in seriousness, we have had more than one rage quit due to the discard.

 

[RadicusScout]

If you still have a card in your hand that came up on the kill board in an earlier round, your hand is dead. As far as I know, this is standard for Scarney.

This makes sense. Honestly, that scenario I mentioned only happened once and we never gave it any more attention. I see your point, though. Holding a dead card will impact others calculations of the low. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[MatB]

What's funny is when someone calls an orbit of double board immediately after and people start throwing cards at the dealer on the flop

 

[Jimulacrum]

What's funny is when someone calls an orbit of double board immediately after and people start throwing cards at the dealer on the flop

My crew plays about 80% games with two boards. They have mostly adjusted to the point that this is rare. We do have one player who likes to play around and call out the bottom board in DBO and other non-Scarney games as if it's a kill board. He doesn't do it every time and so far has not caused anyone to discard improperly, but I don't like it. I'm not bossman anymore, but someday I may have to put that guy in his place.

 

[MatB]

My crew plays about 80% games with two boards. They have mostly adjusted to the point that this is rare. We do have one player who likes to play around and call out the bottom board in DBO and other non-Scarney games as if it's a kill board. He doesn't do it every time and so far has not caused anyone to discard improperly, but I don't like it. I'm not bossman anymore, but someday I may have to put that guy in his place.

when did you get demoted?

every table needs a captain

 

[Jimulacrum]

This makes sense. Honestly, that scenario I mentioned only happened once and we never gave it any more attention. I see your point, though. Holding a dead card will impact others calculations of the low. Thanks for the clarification!

Another option I've thought about but never implemented is to have players discard normally on each round, but if you turn up with a dead card in hand at the end, it only disqualifies you for the low, but you can still win the high.

It's a little like training wheels but still penalizes the player for basically feeding the rest of the table misinformation, protecting the other players from concealed low hands (which are really the main reason number of cards in hand is public information).

 

[Jimulacrum]

when did you get demoted?

every table needs a captain

I handed the game (and the tourney league) over to a friend because I was planning to move.

Then I realized there's no such thing as moving to a cheaper place anymore.

 

[MatB]

I'm also in agreement with the 'all-in" no fouled hand rule.

Scarney is a tough one, and sometimes there's a lot of money in the pot, In march I had a moment of clarity and refunded a player because he fouled his hand, he wasnt all in but the action wouldn't have changed had he discarded at the right time.

I had to remember to keep it friendly and we were not at the shark table.

Player took a @Schmendr1ck (walk) after he fouled and I realized I was a being a dick.


@k9dr

 

[Poker Zombie]

We play the traditional way, but the way we have enforced this is a little loose; players have until the next card lands on the board to get the dead cards from the prior round out of their hands.

This brings up an interesting point.

In draw games, you have a round of betting followed by a round of discards/draws. Shouldn't Scarney also be handled in the same light? You see what you are going to discard, then make your bet, then you and your opponents draw (or in this case just discard).

How many games of Badugi, 2-7 triple draw, 5-card draw, etc, have you called a big bet only to have that sinking feeling when your opponent stands pat. It would be on par with looking down on 13 points and calling a pot-sized bet - only to watch your opponent discard down to 1 card.

This method may also mitigate the issue of missed discards. You aren't thinking about what you have during the discard round, you are only thinking about discarding.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm also in agreement with the 'all-in" no fouled hand rule.

Scarney is a tough one, and sometimes there's a lot of money in the pot, In march I had a moment of clarity and refunded a player because he fouled his hand, he wasnt all in but the action wouldn't have changed had he discarded at the right time.

I had to remember to keep it friendly and we were not at the shark table.

Player took a @Schmendr1ck (walk) after he fouled and I realized I was a being a dick.


@k9dr

I'm curious what the distinction was. IMO, if you're still in a hand with any potential action still pending, and you have a dead card in your hand from a prior round, your hand is dead. Any bet you made stays in the pot, whether it was before or after the failure to discard. I had to rule on something like this previously, where a player bet $30 (a lot for this game) and then realized he had a dead card. Of course he advocated for taking the bet back, but it's hard to justify why he should get to do that, aside from being friendly.

I get wanting to make people feel better, but how do we assess whether the missed discard would have changed the action? Is there a way this can be codified that's clear and fair to everyone? It seems like a very nebulous thing to enforce. And by "nebulous" I mean people who do get their hands killed and don't get refunds are going to feel like you made a pretty subjective decision and may get sore about it. Opens up a lot of room for argument.

 

[Jimulacrum]

This brings up an interesting point.

In draw games, you have a round of betting followed by a round of discards/draws. Shouldn't Scarney also be handled in the same light? You see what you are going to discard, then make your bet, then you and your opponents draw (or in this case just discard).

How many games of Badugi, 2-7 triple draw, 5-card draw, etc, have you called a big bet only to have that sinking feeling when your opponent stands pat. It would be on par with looking down on 13 points and calling a pot-sized bet - only to watch your opponent discard down to 1 card.

This method may also mitigate the issue of missed discards. You aren't thinking about what you have during the discard round, you are only thinking about discarding.

The more we discuss this, the more I kinda like the idea of having a formal, separate round where everyone has an opportunity to discard, and once that's over, the door is closed. Personally I'd put the discards ahead of that round's bets, but I like the idea. Makes the game cleaner.

 

[k9dr]

I'm also in agreement with the 'all-in" no fouled hand rule.

Scarney is a tough one, and sometimes there's a lot of money in the pot, In march I had a moment of clarity and refunded a player because he fouled his hand, he wasnt all in but the action wouldn't have changed had he discarded at the right time.

I had to remember to keep it friendly and we were not at the shark table.

Player took a @Schmendr1ck (walk) after he fouled and I realized I was a being a dick.


@k9dr

For the record, I was mad at myself, not mad at you. I definitely appreciated your magnanimous gesture.

Who doesn’t need to take a @Schmendr1ck from time to time.

 

[k9dr]

I'm curious what the distinction was. IMO, if you're still in a hand with any potential action still pending, and you have a dead card in your hand from a prior round, your hand is dead. Any bet you made stays in the pot, whether it was before or after the failure to discard. I had to rule on something like this previously, where a player bet $30 (a lot for this game) and then realized he had a dead card. Of course he advocated for taking the bet back, but it's hard to justify why he should get to do that, aside from being friendly.

I get wanting to make people feel better, but how do we assess whether the missed discard would have changed the action? Is there a way this can be codified that's clear and fair to everyone? It seems like a very nebulous thing to enforce. And by "nebulous" I mean people who do get their hands killed and don't get refunds are going to feel like you made a pretty subjective decision and may get sore about it. Opens up a lot of room for argument.

If I remember correctly, it was the river card I failed to discard, we were heads up, and at least one of us was all in, so no further betting.

Tree House was definitely involved.

 

[Jimulacrum]

If I remember correctly, it was the river card I failed to discard, we were heads up, and at least one of us was all in, so no further betting.

Tree House was definitely involved.

Oh, yeah, if you were the other party against an all-in player, that's a fair and reasonable way to handle it. I got the impression from Matt's post that this was a hand where action could have happened between discards.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Tree House was definitely involved.

I fucking miss beer, man. Never been that much of a drinker, but those premium brews I got introduced to at Truman's House were so damn good, like if a beer could somehow be a dessert at the same time.

 

[MatB]

Oh, yeah, if you were the other party against an all-in player, that's a fair and reasonable way to handle it. I got the impression from Matt's post that this was a hand where action could have happened between discards.

Look. It’s well known my hand history recollection is not the best

 

[drdr]

To the OP.
I've run after tournament limit Scarney cash game last three games.
Having the opposite problem, people love it so much they don't want to go home.
Though the only person so far to be dead from failed discard is me and I'm already home.

 

[Jimulacrum]

To the OP.
I've run after tournament limit Scarney cash game last three games.
Having the opposite problem, people love it so much they don't want to go home.
Though the only person so far to be dead from failed discard is me and I'm already home.

Glad to hear of Scarney bringing mostly joy and not anguish.

 

[drdr]

Glad to hear of Scarney bringing mostly joy and not anguish.

Tried Scrotum first. We hated that. I wanted to rage quit... but host.