Cash Game First Ever Fixed Limit Night (2 Viewers)

[warma]

I know this thread has some age, but I want to transition from no limit to limit hold’em. The 0.50/1 are the small and big bets, right? They are not the blinds.

 

[JustinInMN]

Well since this thread is back from the dead.

1) How did this go last year @rjbf65 ?

2)

I can never remember, because most of my limit play happens online, where you don’t really have to keep track of these things, but what is the standard raise limit per street? Is it 3? And is that 3 on top of the first bet? So the early streets would be capped at $4 and the later streets would be capped at $8?

I believe a bet and three raises is "standard" but there are places that allow a bet and four raises, so it's understandable to be unsure. (Minnesota is one such place where four raises are allowed in limit, I believe Nevada is the same way.)

3)

I wouldn't spread anything less than a 2 / 4 game for fixed limit.

I think 1/2 limit is actually a pretty reasonable risk level if the comparison is 25¢-25¢ NL. I think if you assume NL players will risk roughly 200 * BB on most nights they would also risk 25 * the high limit in limit games. 2/4 limit would be more comparable to a risk level for 25¢-50¢ NL, imo.

4)

I know this thread has some age, but I want to transition from no limit to limit hold’em. The 0.50/1 are the small and big bets, right? They are not the blinds.

Correct. Limit games are cited by their small and big limits, not the blinds. No limit games obviously don't have limits, so they are usually cited by the blinds and sometimes max buy-in.

In limit games, the big blind and the small limit are always the same, and as with all other forms, the small blind is some portion of the big blind. (Often one-half but not always. A common exception, a 3/6 limit game will use a 1 small blind instead of 1.50 so 50¢ do not become necessary.)

 

[Thorn]

Glad this got bumped as I'm trying to get my group to try a fixed limit night too.

Any advice on which games play best in fixed limit format? Any to avoid?

Looking through abby's mixed game cards and info in this roadmap I'm thinking to start with:
Double board hold em
3 hand hold em
Pineapple
Omaha (hi only and O8)
7 stud (hi only and 8 or better)
Tahoe pitch & roll
Badugi
2-7 Triple draw

 

[JustinInMN]

Glad this got bumped as I'm trying to get my group to try a fixed limit night too.

Any advice on which games play best in fixed limit format? Any to avoid?

Looking through abby's mixed game cards and info in this roadmap I'm thinking to start with:
Double board hold em
3 hand hold em
Pineapple
Omaha (hi only and O8)
7 stud (hi only and 8 or better)
Tahoe pitch & roll
Badugi
2-7 Triple draw

In my opinion all of these play well in a limit format. The question to me really is which of these games get too big too quick in a PL or NL format. In my opinion particular, Stud, O8, Badugi, and Triple Draw are all better served in limit-only formats. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Thorn]

Thanks @JustinInMN

The question to me really is which of these games get too big too quick in a PL or NL format.

this is what I'm trying to avoid. My group enjoys hold em tourneys but not much appetite for NL cash games. Seems FL would suit us better for a social night. I just need to convince them to give it a try.

 

[rjbf65]

Well since this thread is back from the dead.

1) How did this go last year @rjbf65 ?

Sadly, it didn’t come together yet. The plan is for the “old crew” to play it when everyone is in town. The host and I did come up with our limits and rotation.

$1-$2 limit. He has a bunch of dice chips so we were going to do .50 and $10 chips. Our crew generally plays .25/.25 and buy ins typically range from $20-$40. So I think $1-$2 limit fits this week.

The rotation was going to be HORSE and also 2-7 triple draw.

Hopefully this year.

 

[Bacon Dad]

I wouldn't spread anything less than a 2 / 4 game for fixed limit.

Why not? What’s your thought process and concerns here? Does it make a difference if you are playing with a lot of newbies or pros?
Thanks!

Disregard. I see the answer. I’m rereading old threads.

 

[rjbf65]

Have a would you rather question for this limit night that I hope happens sometime soon.

I just acquired a set of No Mold Bellagios and they look awesome. Breakdown is below.

200 - .25
300 - $1
200 - $5
100 - $20

My original plan was to use my buddies big dice set and call each chip .50.

Would you rather play it with dice chips since there is at least 600 of one color? Or give it a go with my set?

I'm thinking if we had 5 players we could give each one 2 barrels of quarters and 2 barrels of $1's for a $50 buy in. Rebuys would be to use up all the $1's and then get the $20's out.

Which way is preferable? (Besides the obvious answer of buying way more chips)

 

[Legend5555]

Have a would you rather question for this limit night that I hope happens sometime soon.

I just acquired a set of No Mold Bellagios and they look awesome. Breakdown is below.

200 - .25
300 - $1
200 - $5
100 - $20

My original plan was to use my buddies big dice set and call each chip .50.

Would you rather play it with dice chips since there is at least 600 of one color? Or give it a go with my set?

I'm thinking if we had 5 players we could give each one 2 barrels of quarters and 2 barrels of $1's for a $50 buy in. Rebuys would be to use up all the $1's and then get the $20's out.

Which way is preferable? (Besides the obvious answer of buying way more chips)

You can run a .50/1 or 1/2 with that setup. 1 barrel of quarters per person is perfectly fine as with the $1 in play too, you only need the fracs for blinds and first 2 betting rounds.

 

[merkong]

I hear horror stories about limit play.

Chase, chase, chase.

I get it Seven Card Stud is limit but aside from that and maybe PLO (which I don’t have the grapes for not the patience with figuring out what’s in the pot) I’m sticking with no limit.

 

[warma]

Limit is so much fun. Great for social games.

 

[upNdown]

I hear horror stories about limit play.

Chase, chase, chase.

Yes. It’s just a different game and it can be difficult for people to adapt who have only ever played no limit. I hated fixed limit at first. What got me to finally figure it out and appreciate it was playing online mixed game tournaments that were fixed limit. But I still haven’t tried it at my home game with my NLHE guys. Someday!

 

[TheJack]

Game looks good, but be aware people tire of Razz pretty quick. Everything else looks for a successful night!

Dont understand why. I love the game

 

[grebe]

Dont understand why. I love the game

Because it's very straightforward and simple compared to other games. No flushes, no straights, and stud is generally a slower game compared to flop games.

I don't mind razz, but I get why others do.

 

[upNdown]

Game looks good, but be aware people tire of Razz pretty quick. Everything else looks for a successful

I don't mind razz, but I get why others do.

Yes. Some people don’t like Razz at all, but even for those of us who do, it can get boring. We used to do PCF tournaments online through PokerStars, and though it was normally NLHE, some nights we’d do mixed games like NLHE/PLO or HORSE. One night we did a Razz tournament and I was excited for it. But after 20-30 minutes, it felt like pulling teeth. I think Razz is great for an orbit at a time during a mixed format but I wouldn’t suggest trying a Razz-only night.

 

[ThrowBack]

Also trying to add a limit stud night. Seeing the nostalgia

It looks like the typical Buyin is 25 times the big bet

So for $50 we should play $1 SB and $2 BB with a .25 ante and .50 bring in?

$80 buy in we could play $2/4 or would we stay stay 1/2?

 

[SteveEH]

Also trying to add a limit stud night. Seeing the nostalgia

It looks like the typical Buyin is 25 times the big bet

So for $50 we should play $1 SB and $2 BB with a .25 ante and .50 bring in?

$80 buy in we could play $2/4 or would we stay stay 1/2?

25 big bets is the standard buy in for limit hold'em, but I always ask my players to bring more for the night just in case. I'd definitely want them to bring more for stud as there's the extra betting round.

Yea the 1/2 with ante, bring in, etc. you described is correct, and I'd stick with that if players are bringing $80.

 

[warma]

25 big bets is the standard buy in for limit hold'em, but I always ask my players to bring more for the night just in case. I'd definitely want them to bring more for stud as there's the extra betting round.

Yea the 1/2 with ante, bring in, etc. you described is correct, and I'd stick with that if players are bringing $80.

@ThrowBack I would consider a table ante to eliminate the need for quarters- betting chips would be worth 50¢, with buy-in being a rack of them.

I pulled this from some smart chipper here (@BGinGA?) a while ago and it’s worked well for me, assuming you play a full orbit:

In a 2-chip/4-chip limit 7 stud game: 1 chip as the bring-in, with a dealer-posted table ante of 4 chips (7+ players), 3 chips (5-6 players), or 2 chips (2-4 players). Fixing it at always 3 chips (regardless of table size) also works fine, imo.

 

[SteveEH]

@ThrowBack I would consider a table ante to eliminate the need for quarters- betting chips would be worth 50¢, with buy-in being a rack of them.

I pulled this from some smart chipper here (@BGinGA?) a while ago and it’s worked well for me, assuming you play a full orbit:

In a 2-chip/4-chip limit 7 stud game: 1 chip as the bring-in, with a dealer-posted table ante of 4 chips (7+ players), 3 chips (5-6 players), or 2 chips (2-4 players). Fixing it at always 3 chips (regardless of table size) also works fine, imo.

Normally I like MoAR chip, but the cool thing about limit is seeing, mostly, all one denomination on the table so I like that idea for a true limit set.

@warma What limit games and stakes do you play?

 

[JustinInMN]

I hear horror stories about limit play.

Chase, chase, chase.

I get it Seven Card Stud is limit but aside from that and maybe PLO (which I don’t have the grapes for not the patience with figuring out what’s in the pot) I’m sticking with no limit.

Players that express frustration with the "chase, chase, chase" of limit usually are just applying incorrect strategy. Mainly, they don't understand to stop bluffing chasers.

If you are playing chasers, instead you exploit the obvious weakness, give up bluffing and instead just value-bet like crazy into opponents that "chase, chase, chase" whenever you have the goods. This approach may require patience, you will have to make a hand to show down, but that said, you just play a bit tighter than the opposition and this will take care of itself. Furthermore, you will be outdrawn a lot, you will be outdrawn more than "your share" because by definition, you will have the best of it more than "your share" as well. When the suckers miss, they do so quietly and leave you a large pot. When they hit, it's conspicuous, but you can then see them quietly bleed off their proceeds quickly as they keep up the chase.

Also PLO, ceases to become PLO if you play it limit. Then it's just "Omaha" or "Limit Omaha."

 

[warma]

Normally I like MoAR chip, but the cool thing about limit is seeing, mostly, all one denomination on the table so I like that idea for a true limit set.

@warma What limit games and stakes do you play?

We’re playing mixed circus games, usually 6-7 folks combined with a whiskey tasting before hand. They’re loving double board and hi-low games, which (obviously) keep more folks in and build the pot. I stole the Weekend at Barrie’s II mixed circus game tournament set list and that went over well.

We play 50¢/$1 or $1/$2 (small/big bets) depending on whether or not one guy shows. It’s really a social game with some dudes from the neighborhood and some old poker buddies. There’s a lot of learning going on, and we all start with a bit of whiskey in our bellies, so… we’re not focused on the cash. I did notice a change when we played 50¢/$1 for the first time- it got a bit more serious. I’d like to introduce $1/$2 at some point, but it may be a while.

 

[SteveEH]

We’re playing mixed circus games, usually 6-7 folks combined with a whiskey tasting before hand. They’re loving double board and hi-low games, which (obviously) keep more folks in and build the pot. I stole the Weekend at Barrie’s II mixed circus game tournament set list and that went over well.

We play 50¢/$1 or $1/$2 (small/big bets) depending on whether or not one guy shows. It’s really a social game with some dudes from the neighborhood and some old poker buddies. There’s a lot of learning going on, and we all start with a bit of whiskey in our bellies, so… we’re not focused on the cash. I did notice a change when we played 50¢/$1 for the first time- it got a bit more serious. I’d like to introduce $1/$2 at some point, but it may be a while.

Sounds fun. What would you say is an average win/loss rate with circus games? When I was doing limit hold'em it was about 25 big bets.

 

[warma]

Sounds fun. What would you say is an average win/loss rate with circus games? When I was doing limit hold'em it was about 25 big bets.

6 or 7 handed, I have 1-2 folks that rebuy, but these are largely loose passive folks that chase everything, rarely fold, and go to showdown with awful hands at a 50¢/$1. Their rebuys happen late, so typically they’re down only a touch after 4 hours, maybe down 25-35 big bets (BB) (I haven’t been paying that much attention)? (No one re-bought during our $1/$2 game, but there were 4.5 of us.) On the win side, I think the biggest winner we had was in 25BB out just over 60BB at 50¢/$1.

 

[Nine_high]

I have a game coming up which I intend to be dealers choice. So far we have done only Holdem & Omaha variants, so it's all been NL or PL with 25c/50c blinds and $100 buy in cap. It took the guys a while to adjust to PL but they are doing great with it now.

But I know one of the players is going to want to deal stud. I don't mind stud games and would be happy to allow them however I'm not sure the best way to structure it in. I'm a little concerned that mixing in a fixed limit betting structure will throw people off, as I can almost guarantee most of them are not familiar. Maybe it's not so bad. Looking for recommendations:

1. Allow stud, play as fixed limit 2/4, 25c ante, $1 bring in
2. Allow stud, play as PL, 50c dealer table ante, 25c bring in
3. Don't allow stud, too complicated. Stick to flop games for now until they learn FL some other time
4. Other?

I have plenty of extra quarters/ones which I'd probably put out to help accommodate some fixed limit hands if I went that route.

 

[JustinInMN]

Allow stud, play as fixed limit 2/4, 25c ante, $1 bring in

2/4 Limit is probably a bit too high of a jump for 25c-50c NL blinds. I would instead do 1/2 limit with 25c ante and 50c bring in. That should keep the risk level similar.

If you do want to do 2/4, then I would do 50c ante with $1 bring in.

In either case if you have quarters in play, no need to do a table ante, that would be a trainwreck concept to introduce to limit newbies.

But I know one of the players is going to want to deal stud. I don't mind stud games and would be happy to allow them however I'm not sure the best way to structure it in. I'm a little concerned that mixing in a fixed limit betting structure will throw people off, as I can almost guarantee most of them are not familiar.

We mix Fixed limit and no limit in my "family" micro game.

We do 0.10-0.20 blinds for NL games, and 0.30/0.60 limits (with either 0.10-0.30 blinds or 0.10 ante, 0.20 bring in the case of stud games)

So I would suggest that you mark the stakes at "0.25-0.50 blinds for NL games, stud games played with 0.25 ante, 0.50 bring in and 1/2 limits. Other limit games played with 0.50-1 blinds and 1/2 limits."

 

[Legend5555]

I have a game coming up which I intend to be dealers choice. So far we have done only Holdem & Omaha variants, so it's all been NL or PL with 25c/50c blinds and $100 buy in cap. It took the guys a while to adjust to PL but they are doing great with it now.

But I know one of the players is going to want to deal stud. I don't mind stud games and would be happy to allow them however I'm not sure the best way to structure it in. I'm a little concerned that mixing in a fixed limit betting structure will throw people off, as I can almost guarantee most of them are not familiar. Maybe it's not so bad. Looking for recommendations:

1. Allow stud, play as fixed limit 2/4, 25c ante, $1 bring in
2. Allow stud, play as PL, 50c dealer table ante, 25c bring in
3. Don't allow stud, too complicated. Stick to flop games for now until they learn FL some other time
4. Other?

I have plenty of extra quarters/ones which I'd probably put out to help accommodate some fixed limit hands if I went that route.

Don't play stud PL. It's basically never done. It has an extra betting round compared to all other games. Generally one of two things happen when playing stud PL. It plays too tight because with all the open info it can become easy to identify when you don't have enough equity to call. Or, it plays very loose with people that don't know it well, pots become gigantic compared to what people are used to for the size of the game, and people go broke quickly.

So, of you are doing to do stud, stick to limit. In 2/4 stud, you can in theory lose $64 in one hand if betting is capped at 4 bets per street. But in general, it would be more like $20-30 per hand if it goes all the way to the river with betting on every street.

 

[rjbf65]

Don't play stud PL. It's basically never done. It has an extra betting round compared to all other games. Generally one of two things happen when playing stud PL. It plays too tight because with all the open info it can become easy to identify when you don't have enough equity to call. Or, it plays very loose with people that don't know it well, pots become gigantic compared to what people are used to for the size of the game, and people go broke quickly.

So, of you are doing to do stud, stick to limit. In 2/4 stud, you can in theory lose $64 in one hand if betting is capped at 4 bets per street. But in general, it would be more like $20-30 per hand if it goes all the way to the river with betting on every street.

We have started to incorporate more dealers choice into our cash games and we have went with Stud as Pot Limit. It's work well for us so far. Can't say I've seen a huge difference between how big it plays vs. PLO. I think it depends on the group that is playing that night on how big it could play. It's nice to still play it as Pot Limit as it keeps more bluffs in the game in my opinion.

I was listening to an old "Top Pair Home Poker" podcast the other day and they made mention of a No Limit HORSE game. That will put hair on your chest!

 

[buzzmonkey]

I have a game coming up which I intend to be dealers choice. So far we have done only Holdem & Omaha variants, so it's all been NL or PL with 25c/50c blinds and $100 buy in cap. It took the guys a while to adjust to PL but they are doing great with it now.

But I know one of the players is going to want to deal stud. I don't mind stud games and would be happy to allow them however I'm not sure the best way to structure it in. I'm a little concerned that mixing in a fixed limit betting structure will throw people off, as I can almost guarantee most of them are not familiar. Maybe it's not so bad. Looking for recommendations:

1. Allow stud, play as fixed limit 2/4, 25c ante, $1 bring in
2. Allow stud, play as PL, 50c dealer table ante, 25c bring in
3. Don't allow stud, too complicated. Stick to flop games for now until they learn FL some other time
4. Other?

I have plenty of extra quarters/ones which I'd probably put out to help accommodate some fixed limit hands if I went that route.

We do $0.25/$0.50 for NL and PL games. For stud we switch to $0.50 dealer ante, $0.50 bring in with $1/$2 limits. Nobody gets screwed because every called game is played for one full orbit plus one hand.

So if I'm first dealer, I call the game and we played all the way back around to me again and I deal it a second time. Then the player to my left call their game and we do the same.

 

[Nine_high]

Thanks for the replies! Also sorry for kinda hijacking the thread

2/4 Limit is probably a bit too high of a jump for 25c-50c NL blinds. I would instead do 1/2 limit with 25c ante and 50c bring in. That should keep the risk level similar.

If you do want to do 2/4, then I would do 50c ante with $1 bring in.

Ok. I haven't run fixed limit while trying to match risk/stakes to NL. I was going off what I've read here, that big bet = 8x big blind as a rule of thumb, plus the golden ratio of 1-2-6-12. 25c-$1-$2-$4 seemed pretty close. Raising the ante to 50c does not seem unreasonable.

In either case if you have quarters in play, no need to do a table ante, that would be a trainwreck concept to introduce to limit newbies.

I was only going to use a table ante if I did pot limit to control the opening pot size and keep it somewhat sane. For fixed limit I'd do individual antes with the quarters.

We mix Fixed limit and no limit in my "family" micro game.

We do 0.10-0.20 blinds for NL games, and 0.30/0.60 limits (with either 0.10-0.30 blinds or 0.10 ante, 0.20 bring in the case of stud games)

So I would suggest that you mark the stakes at "0.25-0.50 blinds for NL games, stud games played with 0.25 ante, 0.50 bring in and 1/2 limits. Other limit games played with 0.50-1 blinds and 1/2 limits."

Do you play each game for an orbit or for one deal?

Don't play stud PL. It's basically never done. It has an extra betting round compared to all other games. Generally one of two things happen when playing stud PL. It plays too tight because with all the open info it can become easy to identify when you don't have enough equity to call. Or, it plays very loose with people that don't know it well, pots become gigantic compared to what people are used to for the size of the game, and people go broke quickly.

So, of you are doing to do stud, stick to limit. In 2/4 stud, you can in theory lose $64 in one hand if betting is capped at 4 bets per street. But in general, it would be more like $20-30 per hand if it goes all the way to the river with betting on every street.

This is a good piece of info. In our usual games we get $100+ pots pretty regularly, maybe a few per hour. I've had pots go over $600 but that's uncommon.

We have started to incorporate more dealers choice into our cash games and we have went with Stud as Pot Limit. It's work well for us so far. Can't say I've seen a huge difference between how big it plays vs. PLO. I think it depends on the group that is playing that night on how big it could play. It's nice to still play it as Pot Limit as it keeps more bluffs in the game in my opinion.

I was listening to an old "Top Pair Home Poker" podcast the other day and they made mention of a No Limit HORSE game. That will put hair on your chest!

Another game I played in always played everything NL including stud games with a 50c ante. It was a disaster and I don't want to recreate that! I've heard of going to PL and thought it might work in order to keep the betting structure more stable throughout the night. It's worth noting that my stud player explicitly stated his favorite game is pot limit stud...I'm not exactly trying to cater to this one player but I'm somewhat motivated to go this route anyway.

We do $0.25/$0.50 for NL and PL games. For stud we switch to $0.50 dealer ante, $0.50 bring in with $1/$2 limits. Nobody gets screwed because every called game is played for one full orbit plus one hand.

So if I'm first dealer, I call the game and we played all the way back around to me again and I deal it a second time. Then the player to my left call their game and we do the same.

I tried round for round once before and everyone pitched a fit lol. I get the reasoning for it, and personally favor it's fairness, but am a little biased in wanting it to be hand for hand dealers choice for my group.

Last few times we did dealers choice: deal 2/3/4/5/6 cards for Holdem/crazy pineapple/PLO/2or5 w Draw/3 handed holdem and it went great. Just deal the number of cards for the game you want. Everyone took to it quite well.

Incidentally this also tips me towards option 2 above, so the dealer penalizes only himself by choosing stud. IDK though.

Thanks for the input!

 

[JustinInMN]

I was going off what I've read here, that big bet = 8x big blind as a rule of thumb,

That rule of thumb is too high imo, 4x is a better conversion, and also probably good to error on the low side when starting. That said, since your NL games are 200BB deep instead of 100-120BB, maybe there would be tolerance for a higher stake. But I think if there are new players that are already going to struggle, do 1/2 limits (with 25c ante and 50c bring in as I suggested.)

I tried round for round once before and everyone pitched a fit lol. I get the reasoning for it, and personally favor it's fairness, but am a little biased in wanting it to be hand for hand dealers choice for my group.

The main reason I favor full rounds as @buzzmonkey does is that it limits time lost in explanations. It probably takes a minute or two to explain a game to players that aren't sure, at least you get 6-7 hands out of the explanation if everyone has to deal it. If you are changing games with every single hand, you might be moving to a point where you may only be spending half your night playing and half your night explaining. Just something to bring up if you want to try and introduce the concept to the group again.