Player looking through the muck (1 Viewer)

[DrStrange]

It is not good form to be digging through the muck. Even so, I find this happens in every home game I play. The norms for a home game are very different from a casino style game

It is not normally an attempt to see other player's hands and gain an advantage, most often it is a chance for the player to remind himself what he folded and maybe start a conversation about who would have won if they had paid to get to showdown. There really aren't many players who have the skill to gain an advantage by seeing your mucked cards when you aren't claiming the pot. (seeing your folded winning hand is perhaps another matter.)

As a host, I am always balancing the social needs of the game vs a literal reading of Robert's Rules. I caution everyone who wants to be a "rules Nazi" that your complaints might always be proper and accurate but make yourself a big enough pain in the ass and it will be you getting the one time warning. We are playing to have fun at my house. I also want to follow generally accepted rules and procedures for the game, but fun can sometimes take priority over rules. The last thing I want is ten people in hoodies and sun glasses, ear buds turned up loud grinding out a session. I have lost one player over this in decades of hosting and it was not much of a loss.

Perspective -=- DrStrange

 

[QuiQuog]

Good points

 

[RainmanTrail]

It is not good form to be digging through the muck. Even so, I find this happens in every home game I play. The norms for a home game are very different from a casino style game

It is not normally an attempt to see other player's hands and gain an advantage, most often it is a chance for the player to remind himself what he folded and maybe start a conversation about who would have won if they had paid to get to showdown. There really aren't many players who have the skill to gain an advantage by seeing your mucked cards when you aren't claiming the pot. (seeing your folded winning hand is perhaps another matter.)

As a host, I am always balancing the social needs of the game vs a literal reading of Robert's Rules. I caution everyone who wants to be a "rules Nazi" that your complaints might always be proper and accurate but make yourself a big enough pain in the ass and it will be you getting the one time warning. We are playing to have fun at my house. I also want to follow generally accepted rules and procedures for the game, but fun can sometimes take priority over rules. The last thing I want is ten people in hoodies and sun glasses, ear buds turned up loud grinding out a session. I have lost one player over this in decades of hosting and it was not much of a loss.

Perspective -=- DrStrange

This is a good point. The type of game and the intention of the atmosphere you want to provide and participate in should be your first consideration here. If this is a fun game with lots of drinking among friends where everyone throws in 20 bucks and talks shit to each other at work the next day, then I wouldn't worry about it at all. However, if this is a somewhat serious home league where players take their points and results seriously, or if you're playing for hundreds or thousands of dollars each, then it's time to start taking the rules seriously.

I think my golf analogy applies here. If you're a hack golfer and you're playing with your hacker friends, trying to keep your score under 100, and loser buys burgers and beers afterwards, then the rules of golf don't matter as much. But if you're a scratch golfer playing for a grand a hole, then it's time to count every stroke.

 

[Mental Nomad]

There's a person or two in my games that likes to fish the muck after the hand, but they just want to show everyone what they "would have had." I try to be a little lenient to them, but otherwise, nobody goes in the muck, or even tries to, in my games.

 

[Strike1st]

Hey, how come Andrew gets to get up? If he gets up, we'll all get up…it'll be anarchy!

 

[Marius L]

I have to agree with DrStrange on this. Home games are often very different from casino games with dedicated dealers and stricter rules. In the home games I usually play there are many things that take place regularly that might not be accepted according to official rules, Such as:

- Letting other people that have folded see your cards while still playing in a hand, and even sometimes asking them for advise (mostly jokeingly)
- Players that have folded looking through the muck/combining the mucked hands of their adjecent players and showing each other fun positilities.
- Players that are not in the hand betting on who will win the hand or the color of the flop/turn/river
- Players that fold preflop in early pos buying back their hand before the flop if a limped family pot develops (maybe having another player that folded sort out which cards were his from the muck, to make sure the player gets back his correct cards.
- If there is a missdeal exposing a card, continue dealing the hand, but in addition to threating the exposed card as the burn card, also have it work as an additional fourth card on the flop.
- Players that are not in the hand rabit hunting turn and river. (even in big pots where they just folded pre-flop)
- All sorts of deals being made during hands, like capping the pot, running multiple boards, everyone showing one card, everyone having to show their winning hands

In the games I play all these strange behaviours and rules massively improves the atmosphere, making the games more fun for the players, making them more comfortable and basically encourage loose plays. In other words I think allowing at least some of these behaviours greatly improves the games.

The size of the pots also have an impact on the situations. Whenever pots are becoming several hundred bbs big, looking at a players mucked cards on the end are much less likely to happen, and will not be accepted if it happens. Most players are aware of the basic ideas of etiquette, but simply dont care in small pots.

In the situation of the OP I think I would have allowed the players to have fun and do these kinds of things and I dont think they would have any (big) advantage doing it. I would also probably start doing the same myself if it was generally an accepted thing to do in the game, or just to prove a point if not. I guess the saying of "when in rome do as the romans" applies here. When you are new to a homegame I think it is best to play on their terms. If they did it to me following a big pot (won or lost), I would probably have said something though, to the entire table, probably asking for the option to see the other player's mucked cards on one occation of my choosing later in the game as abby99 also did.

 

[abby99]

I guess the saying of "when in rome do as the romans" applies here.

This is a great point. Home games have their own cultures, and I have a "fit or fold" attitude when playing with a new group. Additionally, the lower the stakes, the more I'm willing to overlook things if it's a fun group to play with.

 

[Dale_Doback]

A subtle comment can go a long way and if they don't stop, they you can let them know you don't like it in a more serious tone.

I've seen this exact scenario play out before and when it first happened (granted I knew all the players) I was just like aw man that's not cool. They were looking at mucks and showing the players cards (who were out of the hand but the hand was still going on).

And then they did it a few more times I was like guys seriously that's not right. I know we're not playing the WSOP but still. Then another player chimed in saying I'm right and it the guy looking at the cards was like fine, fine. Sorry. You whiny little bit*hes. Every had a laugh and it didn't happen again and nobody got upset.

Not saying that'll be the same outcome at other games but I usually take that tact a lot - small subtle comment in a non confrontational tone...

 

[AllinBallin]

Wouldn't bother me if it were hands folded preflop

 

[Poker Zombie]

I like a game that follows the rules, so I try to get players to conform to the rules at my games. I have not found that "following the rules" = "not a fun game". Truth is, I've found my game has built up and has more fun (denoted by laughter and interactive conversations) than any game that freely bends the rules.

When in someone else's game, I will point out the rule/etiquette violation. Perhaps they'll honor my request, perhaps not. Nice thing about away games, is you can leave and never return if you like.

Digging through the muck is pretty egregious in my book, and I would not return - and notify the host why he lost a player. Showing a neighbor your cards? I'd say show one, show all. They'll usually comply or cease the activity. Either way, It's not bad enough to drive me away from the game if it's good enough.

 

[detroitdad]

"following the rules" = "not a fun game".

exactly............

I concur with your entire post. Well said sir.

 

[AllinBallin]

exactly............

I concur with your entire post. Well said sir.

usually all rules are followed until we break out the fireball!

 

[detroitdad]

usually all rules are followed until we break out the fireball!

tru dat..........

 

[Daniel Albarran]

It's like you're describing a guy in our group. Loud, funny and nosy. In my case, I'm not an outsider like you, so I've told him several times in a funny tone: "don't be nosy!" It doesn't work haha, so I just let it go, it doesn't bother anyone else.