Player looking through the muck (4 Viewers)

[QuiQuog]

So I'm at a home game tourney this weekend, some people I've played with maybe 10 or 15 times, some I don't know. I'm known to the core group, but not part of their inner circle. As a group, most are fairly good players and will be quick to point out rules violations, such as verbal bets bind, one chip rule, exposed card rules and the like. But they don't seem to really care about etiquette as much. There are a few of them that often show their cards to the player next to them, rabbit hunt whenever possible, or talk about hands they're not in. It's a $25 buy in between mostly guys that are well known to each other, so it's a very friendly and fun atmosphere. None of the antics really bothers me, it's just a real good time. Even so, I try to stick to etiquette even though others don't.

One of the regulars is pretty boisterous, loud, humorous, everybody likes him since he livens up the game, you know the type. He knows the game and is fairly good, and from what I gather, plays a lot, and in the casinos fairly often. I would expect that he knows etiquette, but as is the norm in this game, mostly chooses to ignore it. But there's one habit of his that I've noticed that does bother me. He will pick up cards from the muck and look at them. I even saw him discussing them with another player. "That's mine, is that yours? These must be his then." I think they were looking at my mucked cards. Not sure, but it really bothered me.

I think that this is more than an etiquette breach, and more of an attempt to know other players hidden game. Being an outsider of sorts, I don't really want to get on anyones bad side so I just kept my mouth shut. It didn't tilt me in any way, but I tried to keep my mucked cards near me until the end of the hand and mix them in after that.

How would you handle a person doing this? Mention it while he's doing it? At a break? Talk to the host? What would you do?

 

[DrStrange]

I think I would let it go. What would be the purpose for making an issue out of this? I appreciate why you would be alarmed but the risks of stirring up trouble outweigh the chance anything worthwhile would change.

DrStrange

 

[gopherblue]

Talk to host. The angle-shooter is angle-shooting.

Not to put to fine a point on it...he's a cheater.

 

[Trihonda]

In that particular situation, I'd let it go, but keep a wary eye on the guy. However, if this were my home game, I'd have a chat with him..

 

[detroitdad]

I think I would just politely say something at the time. I wouldn't make a big stink about it. Something like "Hey asshole, I folded for a reason. Please don't look at my cards". Well, maybe not say asshole.

 

[Trihonda]

I think I would just politely say something at the time. I wouldn't make a big stink about it. Something like "Hey asshole, I folded for a reason. Please don't look at my cards". Well, maybe not say asshole.

Are you sure you wouldn't ask the guy if he'd like to be tied up?

 

[manamongkids]

Next time he folds, try to watch his cards and dig HIS cards out of the muck, when he says something just be like, "oh I thought digging out of the muck was kosher, I see you do it quite often"

 

[lnlver]

I'd bring out my muck taser and give the guy a 'charge'.

 

[BPTDirector]

Boo, bad form. But if it is not your game that you are hosting best you can do is say something to the host as to whether he allows this or not. If he does, maybe don't play there if you don't like that.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Mehh. It really depends on what you think of the guy. There's a guy at one of my games who grabs the entire muck once and a while for fun. He just takes a look to see "if we could make a hand from this crap". Yeah it's against the rules, but I don't think he's doing anything malicious nor do I think he's good enough to actually gain useful information if he knew anyone's cards. If he's doing it specifically to see what players folded in certain circumstances in order to gain more information then yes that is bad and something should be said. In the end it's a home game and most things are "villain" dependent.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Next time he folds, try to watch his cards and dig HIS cards out of the muck, when he says something just be like, "oh I thought digging out of the muck was kosher, I see you do it quite often"

Beat me to it

 

[guinness]

Asking the dealer to show mucked cards is perfectly legal but its horrible etiquette unless the requester suspects collusion. I think this is why the rule exists.

In a public casino, if someone is repeatedly asking to see your cards, you have at least a couple options:

1] Try to muck into other cards so that recovering them is not an option
2] Talk to the floor about the asshole continuously requesting, they may require the requester to have reason for future requests beyond "just show me".

I went through this at Foxwoods ~10 years ago where a guy continuously asked to see my cards. Since I play 90% of my hands it infuriated me. What was even more infuriating was that this guy played .001% of his hands, so his ability to profit from my cards was null since its a snap fold if he raised ever (which I don't think he even did during the session). Anyways, I got a floorman to side with me that since collusion was established as a non-issue, he needed to stop requesting my hands unless further evidence was presented that he needed to see them. It was a nice FU. It's one thing to put up with nits, but a nit with an angle motive has got to be bullet to the head worthy.

Regarding the home game, I absolutely would say knock it off, but I'm usually the assertive social guy described in the OP at games, minus the card checking. I think the guy is probably too comfortable with his friends and just needs to be reminded that hey, you are not in the inner circle and checking your cards is not cool. I think he would have respected that if you made a stance without coming off as a temper tantrum. I think everyone would side with you too.

 

[QuiQuog]

So far the consensus is "not a big deal in this setting, but still not cool." This was my take as well. I think that if I see it again I will just say out loud at the table, "Are you looking at mucked cards?", and then let it go, whatever his response may be. This should draw others attention to it and cause an "oh shit" moment for the offender without coming off as whiny. If it keeps happening I will tell him to please not look at mine.

 

[Jeff]

I'd be looking to somehow mix my cards in the muck where it's hard to retrieve them.

The idea to retrieve his cards a couple of times is an interesting one. Do people retrieve his cards too?

You better be mixing up your game when this guy gets to check your hole cards.

 

[courage]

Not cool. I'd probably ask the table in general or host "so it's ok to look at mucked cards at this game?" If it's not taken care of I'd just start asking him to pass me his fairly often.

 

[jbutler]

One of the only times I've ever done anything purposefully confrontational in a casino involved a player wanting to see mucked hands. I cold decked a guy and then sucked out on him really quickly after that and he proceeded to IWTSTH me like 10 times over the course of the next couple hours. They were all tiny, meaningless hands, though, so I waited until we were in a big pot together.

Eventually we saw a river 3 ways with about $800 in the pot ($1/2 NLHE game) before river betting. I had made top set against an obvious flush and called a semi-large bet on the turn looking to boat. He likely had garbage, but when the obvious flush bet a blank river, I folded as I typically do: sliding my cards in convenient reach of the dealer, but not attempting to push them into any other mucked cards.

As soon as he folded behind me he started to say "IWTSTH", but by the time he was finishing, I had picked up my cards and spun them aggressively into the muck so as to be indistinguishable. He lost it, started screaming and the floor ended up coming over and giving him a warning.

In retrospect, I should have just done as discussed above and called a floor on about the third or fourth time he IWTSTHed me.

 

[Wils]

OP - I would definitely say something there and then. He's getting free information, information that he otherwise would've had to go heads up against you to obtain.

It's cheating, pure and simple.

 

[RowdyRawhide]

You handled it the same as I would in most circumstances. Keep my mucked cards fairly close till everything's done if possible.

I think I would let it go. What would be the purpose for making an issue out of this? I appreciate why you would be alarmed but the risks of stirring up trouble outweigh the chance anything worthwhile would change.

DrStrange

This is my reason as well

Not cool. I'd probably ask the table in general or host "so it's ok to look at mucked cards at this game?" If it's not taken care of I'd just start asking him to pass me his fairly often.

A couple bourbons in this probably how I would handle it

I think I would just politely say something at the time. I wouldn't make a big stink about it. Something like "Hey asshole, I folded for a reason. Please don't look at my cards". Well, maybe not say asshole.

After having tore through 1/2 of a 750 of bourbon this is where I would be, although probably a few more colorful modifiers

 

[abby99]

This happened to me once in a home game that has since disbanded. An infrequent player pulled my cards from the muck and looked that them -- that just wasn't done at that game. I was stunned but managed to announce that I was claiming the right to see his hand, once, at the time of my choosing. (I never did exercise that option.) With that particular group, nobody had done that before or since.

 

[DrStrange]

Let's be clear here - the action in question is not someone looking specifically at Hero's mucked hand. It is someone picking up a fist full of the muck and looking at all the cards.

Maybe they want to see what they folded, maybe they want to show someone else what they folded, maybe they want to compare folded hands and maybe they are trying to figure out what everyone else folded. There is not evidence of malicious intention though there certainly could be.

DrStrange

 

[Mental Nomad]

I think that this is more than an etiquette breach, and more of an attempt to know other players hidden game. Being an outsider of sorts, I don't really want to get on anyones bad side so I just kept my mouth shut. It didn't tilt me in any way, but I tried to keep my mucked cards near me until the end of the hand and mix them in after that.

The other replies in the thread seem to imply that people think you mean this happens after river folds, but as I read your comments, it sounds like he's picking up the muck while the hand is still in play... and I don't like that going on.

 

[rowlin]

I can't believe muck taser has only been suggested once.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

The other replies in the thread seem to imply that people think you mean this happens after river folds, but as I read your comments, it sounds like he's picking up the muck while the hand is still in play... and I don't like that going on.

^^This. It's one thing to ask to see a hand that was mucked at showdown that wasn't tabled. It's another to look at the entire muck (not cool), and while the hand is in play (wtf?). If this is happening during the hand, what the heck is the dealer doing?

 

[DarPodo]

If the home game is allowing this behavior to occur regularly then telling him anything about looking at the mucked cards will not help. You need to address this with the host. It sounds like this guy won't take you seriously if you ask him not to look at mucked cards anymore.

 

[RainmanTrail]

A little background... I generally ignore a lot of poker etiquette as well. I will regularly show my cards to a neighbor, I'll show my cards even during a live hand to give air at times, and I think intent is more important than the letter of the law. I'm also the type to give myself a better lye on the golf course because I don't give a shit about the rules (though I'm open about what I'm doing, and I don't play golf for money, just for fun and exercise). However, I was also a dealer and a poker room manager for a few years, and this is something I absolutely have no tolerance for.

My approach, next game, I'd bring a joint with me, and offer to smoke him out (I'm sure he's game), and I would politely call him out on it. I would explain why it's bullshit for him to look at the mucked hands if he doesn't know already (I'm guessing he does). Seeing mucked cards is a huge advantage. If he told me to fuck off and kept doing it, we'd have an issue. At which point, I'd talk to the guy running the game, and if they don't care enough to do anything about it, I'd stop playing there and I'd follow him home and piss on all 8 of his cats.

 

[Wils]

I'll see your pissing on all 8 of his cats, and raise you a shitting in all 9 of his hats.

 

[QuiQuog]

The other replies in the thread seem to imply that people think you mean this happens after river folds, but as I read your comments, it sounds like he's picking up the muck while the hand is still in play... and I don't like that going on.

No, he's not looking at them during play, only after the hand. I would try to keep my mucked cards close so that I could mix them in with all the other cards at the end of a hand, making it harder to identify them.

 

[RainmanTrail]

No, he's not looking at them during play, only after the hand. I would try to keep my mucked cards close so that I could mix them in with all the other cards at the end of a hand, making it harder to identify them.

Doesn't matter when he's looking. That's not cool.

 

[QuiQuog]

Let's be clear here - the action in question is not someone looking specifically at Hero's mucked hand. It is someone picking up a fist full of the muck and looking at all the cards.

Maybe they want to see what they folded, maybe they want to show someone else what they folded, maybe they want to compare folded hands and maybe they are trying to figure out what everyone else folded. There is not evidence of malicious intention though there certainly could be.

DrStrange

Is trying to figure out what everyone else folded by looking at the muck acceptable? The fact that he's looking at the muck and trying to figure out what somebody folded is the part I have a problem with. Malicious isn't a word I would use for it, but it certainly gives the impression that he's looking for an unfair advantage by knowing what he has no right to know. They may not have been my cards, I don't know, but he shouldn't be looking at any of them. Let alone going over it with his buddy sitting next to him.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Is trying to figure out what everyone else folded by looking at the muck acceptable?

No, absolutely not. Not ever. If he tried to pull that shit at ANY card room, he'd be warned once, and kicked out the second time. This is probably the most strictly enforced rule a card room would have (other than stealing chips of course). You would get more warnings for trying to start a fight than you would for grabbing hands out of the muck.