What are your buy in rules for a cash game? (1 Viewer)

[ngmcs8203]

The bankroll suggestions you're talking about are for professional players playing regularly at those stakes, in order to avoid risk of ruin over a long sample. If a pro isn't rolled for his chosen stakes, that's on him.

We're not talking about pros in the general case. We're talking about mostly recreational players, virtually all of whom are playing outside of professional bankroll recommendations.

They don't need $9K to play $1/2. They need whatever amount they set aside to play their weekly/biweekly/monthly game.

When a short-rolled player chooses to play scared money because he doesn't want to risk one of his three bullets for this session, he's not making a mistake just this hand that's still a smart play for the long run. He's making a mistake, both short- and long-term. There's no survival motive or risk-of-ruin concern for players in this situation, especially for players who fund their poker out of their life rolls. If they're making bad plays against a "chip bully," they're selling themselves short on EV, plain and simple.

Some folks, myself included, will have money set aside for poker. If it can be replenished, great, but I would never want to be in a position where I feel like my poker funds are at any risk of ruin. I think for rec's that have an income elsewhere, practicing BR management does not make them a pro.

I agree that the 20-30 BI limit is a little extreme for a rec. Any live cash game I will generally have at least 3 BI on hand and at least 3-4 more in my account. If I am "shot taking" I am probably going to have one less BI on my stoploss than I would if I was playing "comfortable". That's just me though, and I have very little modern day live poker experience.

My online BR management is a little different. I have a 20BI threshold for my online BR since I usually 3-4 table and am willing to take a few shots if I have at least 10BI for the next level up.

 

[allforcharity]

There is no such thing as a big stack / bully at a cash table.

Of course there is. Not everyone at the table has the same access to resources. And since betting games are a primarily psychological process, bullying with big stacks happens and happens often.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Some folks, myself included, will have money set aside for poker. If it can be replenished, great, but I would never want to be in a position where I feel like my poker funds are at any risk of ruin. I think for rec's that have an income elsewhere, practicing BR management does not make them a pro.

I agree that the 20-30 BI limit is a little extreme for a rec. Any live cash game I will generally have at least 3 BI on hand and at least 3-4 more in my account. If I am "shot taking" I am probably going to have one less BI on my stoploss than I would if I was playing "comfortable". That's just me though, and I have very little modern day live poker experience.

My online BR management is a little different. I have a 20BI threshold for my online BR since I usually 3-4 table and am willing to take a few shots if I have at least 10BI for the next level up.

It's not that your approach doesn't make sense. It does.

But this still does not change the fact that if you encounter a maniac who's throwing a party, and you choose to play scared or avoid the game, he's not playing unfairly or exercising an undue advantage; you're choosing to play suboptimally because you're choosing to be risk-averse.

Poker is a game of taking risks. If you're not taking risks, you're not winning.

 

[louBdub]

I welcome anyone to sit down at my table…. I’ll buy 200bb, you buy 1000bb…

You raise every hand 20bb preflop and shove post flop. “Big stack flexin”

By all means, enjoy. I will too.

That said, I personally add on to make sure nobody will call me with rags and suck out, because it’s only $X amount.

You’ve all done it…. You see the player only has $30 behind, snap call with your 8/9s and let it ride. You damn well won’t snap call if you have $300 and he has $290….. And raises his Q/Q $50…

I want you to know that if you call me, I have the chips to felt you. So approach with caution. That’s part of the game.

In my opinion…. There is no big stack advantage in cash. It’s only in your mind.

 

[4SUMERZ]

Especially if it's a home game with friends and/or friends of friends. Some of those people aren't there to try and scalp everyone, they're there to have a good time and hopefully win a few bucks, and if they don't not take too big a loss. If it's at a casino, that's a different thing.

Totally agree with this...My scenario was meant for friendly home game with friends, not a casino setting. I'm sure there are some home games on here that are unlimited.

 

[MrCatPants]

If one player has an essentially unlimited bankroll at your stakes, while others are only rolled for 1-3 buyins per session, the richer player certainly can run over the poorer ones if they are playing too tight as a result.

The ol martingale poker strategy.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The ol martingale poker strategy.

Basically.

There's a reason why casinos have no fear of people using this strategy.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

What are your initial buy in rules for a cash game, in terms of BBs?

For our small stakes cash games we standardize at 80BB stacks.

Pros is we didn't drive off players as the competition got stronger, but cons we get a lot of early all in hands. It's 80BB or up to half the big stack for late arrivals/rebuys/top ups.

For my bigger stakes games it's up to 100BB. And then half the big stack for late arrivals/rebuys/top ups.

For my circus night we play deeper - standardize 160 BB for initial buy in. Half the big stack after that.


What do you do? What do you like/not like about it? I've been debating going a little deeper on starting stack amounts but worry about some players getting scared off.

Just found this and haven't read any of the other comments. How funny that you posted this as I've been thinking about talking to you about this. I'll post my thoughts here first, then go back and read the other comments.

I firmly believe raising our initial buy in from 80BB to 120BB, or even 160BB, would be a good idea. And I don't think such a small increase will scare anyone off. I hosted a game myself recently with a couple of our players and a bunch of occasional players. We did $60 buyin for a 25c/50c game. For this group, it was perfect. We played a long time before there were any rebuys or all-ins. We eventually had 5 total rebuys from 7 players. But again, a totally different group of players overall. No true maniacs.

I think with the inflation we've had the past couple of years that $60 is the new $40. I don't think there would be any negative impact if you were to propose that change.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Yes, I agree.

My "Regulars" are strong players who want deep stacks and play aggressively. They have been the impetus of a push in max BI from 150 - 250 over the last two years. This has the effect of pushing the double rebuy from 300BB to 500BB naturally.

While they all usually play 2/3 or 2/5 at the casino and underground games, my game is 1/1 and I can see how new players are scared to BI for the full amount and a losing first session usually results in the player not returning.

I think the solution will be introduction of a lower stakes game run on a different night to the 1/1. A 0.25/0.25 game with a $50 max BI could be a much more comfortable introduction game.

I think the key is to match the game to the players. If you all of a sudden start offering a new 25c/25c game with a more limited buyin, but invite the same players from your much bigger game, I don't think anyone is going to be happy, especially not the couple of new players that you invite. If you want to have a smaller game for a few new players, you need to carefully choose which experienced players you invite to join that game.

Personally, I can play nickel/dime with my family, or $1/3 at the cardroom, and have fun at both. But in the micro stakes game, I'm not going to be running over the less experienced players and pushing n00bs to their limits. Just not my style. I'll play a little looser, for sure, But I won't go into maniac mode. I want n00bs to learn, have fun, gain experience, and come back again to the next game. I think any experienced players you invite to a n00b game need to have that type of attitude.

 

[4SUMERZ]

I think the key is to match the game to the players. If you all of a sudden start offering a new 25c/25c game with a more limited buyin, but invite the same players from your much bigger game, I don't think anyone is going to be happy, especially not the couple of new players that you invite. If you want to have a smaller game for a few new players, you need to carefully choose which experienced players you invite to join that game.

Personally, I can play nickel/dime with my family, or $1/3 at the cardroom, and have fun at both. But in the micro stakes game, I'm not going to be running over the less experienced players and pushing n00bs to their limits. Just not my style. I'll play a little looser, for sure, But I won't go into maniac mode. I want n00bs to learn, have fun, gain experience, and come back again to the next game. I think any experienced players you invite to a n00b game need to have that type of attitude.

I agree....The last time I played at my home game, our friendly $25 buy in cash game, I'm dealing, had AH-5H, my buddy raises 3x BB, called by 3 including me. The flop came 3 hearts, 8H,7H,4H. Mu buddy does 2x BB raise, called by one other, and I just call to keep those 2 in the hand. I'm thinking one of them had a straight or a draw for a straight or flush...the turn comes AC, so no change, no board pr, so my buddy raise 4x BB, one folds and I reraise to 8BB total and my buddy calls. The river comes 6H, so that gave me a straight flush. My buddy raises 6x the BB, but I knew I couldn't lose, the pot is big enough so I just called...no need to be greedy. Of course I won the hand... my buddy had AS and KH, so he had rivered a flush...he thanked me for not pushing on him...knowing him, he may have called.
Give me that same scenario in a casino setting, and I'm making the straight flush work for a potentially much bigger pot.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

I would feel disrespected if someone just called his straight flush on the river to have pity on me sitting there with $25.

But hey, you do what works for your game.

 

[4SUMERZ]

I would feel disrespected if someone just called his straight flush on the river to have pity on me sitting there with $25.

But hey, you do what works for your game.

So I go all in and my buddy folds..no difference...would you call with K flush when someone goes all in, straight flush or A potential...at a casino no doubt I'm going all in or raising huge..
We are all friends at the table, playing a game of poker and socializing with $25 buy ins..lol

 

[timewolf]

$1/2 with 200bb max

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

So I go all in and my buddy folds..no difference...would you call with K flush when someone goes all in, straight flush or A potential...at a casino no doubt I'm going all in or raising huge..

Well now we're talking strategy. That didn't seem to be the point you were making though.

We are all friends at the table, playing a game of poker and socializing with $25 buy ins..lol

Sure, you do what works for you.
As I said, I think I personally would take offense if someone treated me like a child by soft playing with the nuts. Your friend didn't, so no harm no foul.

 

[TheOffalo]

I recently picked up a Fun Nite set that I'm using as cash (just without the currency symbol), and I don't have fracs for the set yet. (Or rather, I have some sharp Fun Nite snappers that I didn't want my regular group, who are not chippers, to mangle them. )

So at first I was going to suggest having the chips be worth twice the buy-in, so buy-in for $50 and get $100 in chips, and then halve the chip value when cashing out, but my guys didn't want to deal with that and would rather play for face value. So instead of our typical .25/.50 w/$50 buy-in format, we decided to play 1/1 but still with a $50 buy-in.

I wasn't sure how buying in for 50 BBs would be, but I was quite surprised at how little it changed the game, for our group at least. People didn't seem to play more tight or scared, and they weren't winning or losing more money compared to .25/.50.

 

[4SUMERZ]

Well now we're talking strategy. That didn't seem to be the point you were making though.

Sure, you do what works for you.
As I said, I think I personally would take offense if someone treated me like a child by soft playing with the nuts. Your friend didn't, so no harm no foul.

Maybe next time I'll just fold my Straight flush when I get raised.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I agree....The last time I played at my home game, our friendly $25 buy in cash game, I'm dealing, had AH-5H, my buddy raises 3x BB, called by 3 including me. The flop came 3 hearts, 8H,7H,4H. Mu buddy does 2x BB raise, called by one other, and I just call to keep those 2 in the hand. I'm thinking one of them had a straight or a draw for a straight or flush...the turn comes AC, so no change, no board pr, so my buddy raise 4x BB, one folds and I reraise to 8BB total and my buddy calls. The river comes 5H, so that gave me a straight flush. My buddy raises 6x the BB, but I knew I couldn't lose, the pot is big enough so I just called...no need to be greedy. Of course I won the hand... my buddy had AS and KH, so he had rivered a flush...he thanked me for not pushing on him...knowing him, he may have called.
Give me that same scenario in a casino setting, and I'm making the straight flush work for a potentially much bigger pot.

Your description of the hand does not result in a straight flush. You listed the 5h twice. For SF you need the river to be 6h, not 5h. But that also means that you did not have the nuts. Your buddy could have beat you with 9hTh for a better SF.

 

[4SUMERZ]

Your description of the hand does not result in a straight flush. You listed the 5h twice. For SF you need the river to be 6h, not 5h. But that also means that you did not have the nuts. Your buddy could have beat you with 9hTh for a better SF.

Corrected...I did have the SF, are you done yet?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Corrected...I did have the SF, are you done yet?

Done with what?

 

[upNdown]

I'm not going to be running over the less experienced players and pushing n00bs to their limits. Just not my style. I'll play a little looser, for sure, But I won't go into maniac mode. I want n00bs to learn, have fun, gain experience, and come back again to the next game.

Sure. But at some point you have to teach them that if they all limp in, somebody is going to come over the top

I would feel disrespected if someone just called his straight flush on the river to have pity on me sitting there with $25.

But hey, you do what works for your game.

right? There’s something like 36bb in the pot and the friend bets 6bb into that, and the effective nuts just calls?
I have seen some home game situations where, if you know that if your friend gets felted, he’s going to leave, so it makes sense not to felt him, for the good of the game. But you still have to milk a few more blinds out of him on the river, just so you can respect yourself in the morning.

 

[Machine]

First three hours it’s 80 USD or 160 BB, then it goes up to 200 BB.

I very much dislike match stack, it takes it from a friendly game to more money focused.
This last game we change to .5/.5, the game did play faster

Cons - action players play for two hours on 3 buyins and leave.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Sure. But at some point you have to teach them that if they all limp in, somebody is going to come over the top

Punishing the limper is one of the first things that I teach n00bs. I wouldn't put that into the maniac category.

 

[JustinInMN]

What are your initial buy in rules for a cash game, in terms of BBs?

For our small stakes cash games we standardize at 80BB stacks.

Pros is we didn't drive off players as the competition got stronger, but cons we get a lot of early all in hands. It's 80BB or up to half the big stack for late arrivals/rebuys/top ups.

For my bigger stakes games it's up to 100BB. And then half the big stack for late arrivals/rebuys/top ups.

For my circus night we play deeper - standardize 160 BB for initial buy in. Half the big stack after that.


What do you do? What do you like/not like about it? I've been debating going a little deeper on starting stack amounts but worry about some players getting scared off.

I do 50¢-50¢, 60 Max (120 BB) or 50¢-1, 150 Max (150BB). I've thought of changing everything to 200BB, but I think that gets a little big. If I did that, I would probably have to do a 10¢-30¢ game to have a $60 buy in game. So I guess I start a little deeper, but I have no match the stack rules. Table cap is consistent for the whole session.

Personally, I am not a fan of any match the stack rules. Aside from being concerned about the players becoming uncomfortable with opponents deeper stacks, from a banking standpoint, I don't want to pause the game to process 7 add-ons as soon as someone wins a double up. Again, while I don't like match the stack rules, I consider half-stack match to be better than full-stack match limit that occurrence. I have been thinking lately if the point is to help a loser "get even" perhaps a rule that player that has been felted twice (or has lost the equivalent of 2x the table cap in total buy-ins), may then elect to buy in for 2x the table cap as a better rule than "match the stack."

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I do 50¢-50¢, 60 Max (120 BB) or 50¢-1, 150 Max (150BB). I've thought of changing everything to 200BB, but I think that gets a little big. If I did that, I would probably have to do a 10¢-30¢ game to have a $60 buy in game. So I guess I start a little deeper, but I have no match the stack rules. Table cap is consistent for the whole session.

Personally, I am not a fan of any match the stack rules. Aside from being concerned about the players becoming uncomfortable with opponents deeper stacks, from a banking standpoint, I don't want to pause the game to process 7 add-ons as soon as someone wins a double up. Again, while I don't like match the stack rules, I consider half-stack match to be better than full-stack match limit that occurrence. I have been thinking lately if the point is to help a loser "get even" perhaps a rule that player that has been felted twice (or has lost the equivalent of 2x the table cap in total buy-ins), may then elect to buy in for 2x the table cap as a better rule than "match the stack."

In our game, we pretty much have to have a match the stack (1/2) because our initial buy in is so low, as compared to the way the players play. OTOH, if our initial buy in was 150-200BB, then it probably wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Postoakpoker]

I'd say it's dependent on the players in your game + the stakes. 100 BB's is a good minimum to avoid habitual short stackers. If someone gets ground down to that point that's a different story.

 

[merkong]

Captain Mischief has entered the conversation.

We play .25/.25 w/ a floating rock straddle. The Rock makes the game .50/.50 about twice an orbit (10 handed). It pops the game just enough but not too much.

We buy in initial for $25.

We used to add half the amount of the big stack no matter what the adder has in his stack. People do add on for no good reason lol.

The we said you add whatever the big stack has regardless of what the adder has. More money.

Now we say if it’s legal tender add it. I don’t care. By the time we count chips or even approximate we’re losing hands/hour.

A couple of players will buy an extra $25 in plaques before the session starts (everyone loves plaques) and put them in the drink holder and as soon as hand one is in the muck out come the plaques. Saves the banker a couple of seconds.

It hasn’t been an issue yet and if it becomes one the Stakes Committee will take it up after the session.

More money at The Executive Game.

Ken (merkong)
Owner/Operator/Founder
*The Godfather Club MN (The Venue)
*The Executive Game, Eagan MN (Current Game)
*Frogtown Card Club, St. Paul (Retired)
*The Poker Family (Our Philosophy)

 

[JustinInMN]

A couple of players will buy an extra $25 in plaques before the session starts (everyone loves plaques) and put them in the drink holder and as soon as hand one is in the muck out come the plaques. Saves the banker a couple of seconds.

It hasn’t been an issue yet and if it becomes one the Stakes Committee will take it up after the session.

More money at The Executive Game.

Can't wait to see these plaques .

Basically you are playing an uncapped game starting with hand 2.

 

[merkong]

Can't wait to see these plaques .

Basically you are playing an uncapped game starting with hand 2.

The plaques are pure danger. The Stakes Commitee has been on standby since we sort of abandon any safeguards.

Ironically enough, the players that were clamoring for less oversight participate the least as far as add ons.

Weird