Tourney Was this couple colluding? (2 Viewers)

[Senzrock]

First instinct is that there is no colussion here. Reasons mentioned above (specifically, why show the cards??) but also, novice players flat AA *all of the time* - far more than we might think. In my game this happens quite frequently. Also, wouldn't you want to chip dump to the more skilled player of the two? How is the boyfriend losing even more chips in that spot helping them out as a couple to make more $ on the night?

 

[BearMetal]

Yup, collusion is easy when you are in the same place: "I have 66, should I shove?" ... "No, I had A6 and folded, you only have 1 out if they hit an over".

Your choice to continue to play. However, this case doesn't really scream foul play to me.

 

[ekricket]

It’s online right? The signaling part is easy “hey, I have AA, can you reopen the action so I can make my move on this sucker”

Then he would say “I have AK, let’s keep everyone in and one of us should make a winning hand, then we’ll split it later”

 

[JMC9389]

I don't think so.

I think girlfriend is a better player than you're giving credit for. Flat calling a raise OOP with aces and then four betting is a pretty advanced move. In her shoes, I probably just three bet and make the hands in late position pay to see a flop, but if the table image of her BF and other players in late position is on the LAG'ey side with wide three betting ranges in position, flatting initially to trap you later down the road is a risky, but profitable move for the most part.

As mentioned, the fact that GF showed the goods makes me think it wasn't intentional colluding. Did BF show AK or did he just say he had it? He could be full of hot air too if he has a LAG table image and he's trying to shield his wide three bet range.

 

[Senzrock]

Sorry, I didn't realize this was online (obviously - Covid - duh), yeah that does change things.

I would just never play in an online game with couples or even friends who are in the same apartment. Results of the evening?

 

[Senzrock]

I don't think so.

I think girlfriend is a better player than you're giving credit for. Flat calling a raise OOP with aces and then four betting is a pretty advanced move. In her shoes, I probably just three bet and make the hands in late position pay to see a flop, but if the table image of her BF and other players in late position is on the LAG'ey side with wide three betting ranges in position, flatting initially to trap you later down the road is a risky, but profitable move for the most part.

As mentioned, the fact that GF showed the goods makes me think it wasn't intentional colluding. Did BF show AK or did he just say he had it? He could be full of hot air too if he has a LAG table image and he's trying to shield his wide three bet range.

Didn't realize we had Ike Haxton on this forum! Welcome!

 

[ekricket]

I don't think so.

I think girlfriend is a better player than you're giving credit for. Flat calling a raise OOP with aces and then four betting is a pretty advanced move. In her shoes, I probably just three bet and make the hands in late position pay to see a flop, but if the table image of her BF and other players in late position is on the LAG'ey side with wide three betting ranges in position, flatting initially to trap you later down the road is a risky, but profitable move for the most part.

As mentioned, the fact that GF showed the goods makes me think it wasn't intentional colluding. Did BF show AK or did he just say he had it? He could be full of hot air too if he has a LAG table image and he's trying to shield his wide three bet range.

Lol, everyone approaching this like “what would Daniel negraenu do”.
It’s a novice player who somehow now has an instant grip on how to leverage every situation using collusion perfectly?

 

[Taghkanic]

for anyone that suspects collusion, I’d say try it. Get a buddy and try to collude at the table. I’ll laugh my ass off.

Except that this was online.

 

[upNdown]

Lol I’m part of the game of poker, just not this particular game. I play in two groups, both of which have couples in them. One is online and one live. If anybody’s colluding it’s not helping them is all I got to say.

for anyone that suspects collusion, I’d say try it. Get a buddy and try to collude at the table. I’ll laugh my ass off. Just thinking through how you would do it consistently makes me laugh. For instance here, talk through the hand from the point of view of the colluders. How does she signal to him he should fold instead of reraising? By raising? How did he know to raise her flat call and then fold to her reraise instead of getting more of the other players money in?

I’d just ask her to recount the hand later and see what she says. She might have thought she had A4 until she looked again.

When I say I assume all couples collide, I mean soft play each other, live. No, it’s not quite the same thing. It’s not quite different, either.

 

[JMC9389]

Lol, everyone approaching this like “what would Daniel negraenu do”.
It’s a novice player who somehow now has an instant grip on how to leverage every situation using collusion perfectly?

Does OP really know that GF is a novice? Maybe her BF has been teaching her how to play in quarantine for the past year. If she's a definite novice, yeah, eff that noise. Her BF was probably in her ear. I just feel that there may be the possibility here of a difference in perceived skill level of players versus their actual skill level.

 

[ekricket]

Except that this was online.

and it’s impossible for two experienced players to be chatting offline and colluding in the exact same way except they are experienced. How do you know this isn’t already happening but they are so good you haven’t caught them?

 

[Taghkanic]

Flat calling a raise OOP with aces and then four betting is a pretty advanced move.

Maybe not so much when you’ve got two passive limpers, a three-better in the pot, your boyfriend and the blinds left to act. She’s not likely to get a chance to reopen for the 4bet in that scenario... On this table if Boyfriend flats my raise or folds she is likely to see the flop with as many as 4-5 opponents. Very iffy for AA even if she gets position. There’s a big incentive to reraise me right away in that spot (isolate or take it down).

Unless, of course, she knows Boyfriend can reopen the action for her...

 

[AK Chip]

It seems like a novice player would have played the hand that way. Calling with multiple players in the hand and a lot to fade is not the best idea. BF on the button puts a squeeze on from position(could have anything there really) Then she shoves after having all the players in the hand.

 

[ekricket]

Just ask her what she was thinking. Tell her you noticed she played the hand wrong, and just trying to help her. If there is collusion that should give them a red flag that it was noticed and maybe it stops. Maybe she had a really good reason for doing it that not even mike postle would understand at the time.

 

[Taghkanic]

Does OP really know that GF is a novice?

Depends on the definition of novice.

Someone brand new to the basic concepts of poker? No, she’s not; she’s watched him play a ton. (If she was playing a style learned from him, the flat would not happen. He’s very aggro/likes to take shots.)

Someone with a lot of hidden experience? I really don’t think so. Never seen her join the game in the dozens of times I’ve played live with Boyfriend, or seen her even comment on the action while sitting behind him live.

Also this club has been running nightly since March, and she only joined recently while he is playing 90% of the time. Don’t think they’re playing on the side elsewhere during the pandemic. She’s only played a relatively small number of hands in the club (well less than 5% of his total iirc).

 

[ekricket]

Depends on the definition of novice.

Someone brand new to the basic concepts of poker? No, she’s not; she’s watched him play a ton. (If she was playing a style learned from him, the flat would not happen. He’s very aggro/likes to take shots.)

Someone with a lot of experience actually playing her own cards? I really don’t think so. Never seen her join the game in the dozens of times I’ve played live with Boyfriend, or seen her even comment on the action while sitting behind him live.

Also this club has been running nightly since March, and she only joined recently while he is playing 90% of the time. Don’t think they’re playing on the side elsewhere during the pandemic. She’s only played a relatively small number of hands in the club (well less than 5% of his total iirc).

Maybe he’s playing both computers and there’s no collusion.
Another reason to ask her about hands.

 

[Taghkanic]

It’s a novice player who somehow now has an instant grip on how to leverage every situation using collusion perfectly?

She wouldn’t need to if he’s there to instruct.

 

[AK Chip]

When I say I assume all couples collide, I mean soft play each other, live. No, it’s not quite the same thing. It’s not quite different, either.

If anything imo the collusion would be that BF didnt call her shove with AK. I'm guessing he didnt have what he said.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.S. In general I’d be more comcerned about couples soft playing each other than flagrant collision. Per above, I had already started to feel they were avoiding battles. So the flat followed by his pot sweetening/reopening reraise felt off.

I fully recognize that there is no way to know for sure. But I think it is still worth thinking through such situations to be familiar with what to look for.

 

[AK Chip]

First instinct is that there is no colussion here. Reasons mentioned above (specifically, why show the cards??) but also, novice players flat AA *all of the time* - far more than we might think. In my game this happens quite frequently. Also, wouldn't you want to chip dump to the more skilled player of the two? How is the boyfriend losing even more chips in that spot helping them out as a couple to make more $ on the night?

This is the first main poker move or strategy for a new player, trying to trap with AA.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.P.S. My call of her 5bet was probably a bad mistake. But I covered her by more than the cost of calling, and thought if I called then Boyfriend and the limpers would release their hands, as my image is mostly pretty tight.

I was overoptimistic that given the action she might have something more like QQ or JJ and was belatedly panic-raising. Figured I could fold comfortably on the flop if unimproved.

But even so it would have still been a costly flip in a tourney... and there was a decent chance that one or more of my outs was subtracted by the limpers’ and Boyfriend’s hands.

Still, it worked out. I 4x’ed my buyin, while “The Couple” lost a total of five buyins... Will see what future games bring. These are 2-3 table MTTs so I’m sure to sit with both again plenty of times.

 

[ekricket]

P.S. In general I’d be more comcerned about couples soft playing each other than flagrant collision. Per above, I had already started to feel they were avoiding battles. So the flat followed by his pot sweetening/reopening reraise felt off.

I fully recognize that there is no way to know for sure. But I think it is still worth thinking through such situations to be familiar with what to look for.

Does this extend to friends that ride together or work together? Couples is a triggering word I know, but I know some best friends that play poker together and are tighter than a couple.

 

[Taghkanic]

Does this extend to friends that ride together or work together? Couples is a triggering word I know, but I know some best friends that play poker together and are tighter than a couple.

Certainly, I’ve played with close friends who tended to soft play each other. It’s also hard to know whether close friends have a piece of each others’ action.

But I also noticed that such friends tend to retain some competitiveness with each other. And they don’t literally share the same bank account/household finances as many couples do.

 

[gopherblue]

Maybe he’s playing both computers and there’s no collusion.
Another reason to ask her about hands.

This.

 

[ChipEnvy]

she’s a beginning player. If she had any strategy thoughts here I’d be surprised.

She is a beginning player... but she obviously is drawn to the game. If she is willing to sit behind a dude after driving him to games for any amount of time and then shows up playing there are two scenarios that I think may be playing out.

She is so eager to please the poker player that she is only playing to cheat for him (I certainly hope not)

-or-

She is interested in poker and is learning. She may have been sitting behind the player because she was too nervous/intimidated or whatever to actually play. While her play could be seen as eye-raising, people newish to the game do weird shit. Playing super trappy is fun and very also common for new players. Knowing that a full table has the opportunity to raise behind (not at all advanced thinking/play... if she has read even one book on poker she knows this) her play seems like an opportunity to, as Vince Van Patton and Mike Sexton liked to say on WPT "Spring the trap".

If this is a one and done, no way they were colluding, and we are looking for monsters under the bed. If this is happening > 3 times a session it is possible but still unlikely unless the poker player is super sketchy to start with (and a complete ass).

 

[upNdown]

One possible explanation is that they were playing straight up, he actually did 3-bet with a big hand, and when she 4-bet, he KNEW she was incapable of doing that with anything but AA.

When I drive to a tournament with a buddy, yeah, we’re a couple, but in a MTT, this rarely matters. When we actually end up at a table together, do we softplay one another? Not exactly. Do we know each other’s tendencies enough to know when it’s best to get the hell out of the way? Yup.

 

[JustinInMN]

I did vote maybe here. I think it's very possible this was a bit of a soft play on the part of the bf for the reason @upNdown mentioned above. I know my wife well and I make laydowns in spots I wouldn't against unknown players. Same is true for other players with whom I am more familiar, so it's tough to know if familiarity means collusion. Boyfriend is perfectly entitled to have a 3-bet fold range, so I don't find the action itself indicting.

That is a weird flat of hero's raise though, and a weird play for a novice, and it's convenient the one person that could collude opened the action.

By the same token though, if she is amateurish, you can't discount the possibility that the 2-bet flat was just a misclick and then when she got the chance to raise again she did?

And again, she did show her hand which is unusual, but really, I don't think mucking face down assuages any suspicions either, given the action. Maybe she just learned about the limp reraise trick and wanted to show off? Who knows?

I think there are several explanations including soft-play and non-soft-play possibilities, so I will take the mushy-middle stance here of "definite maybe." With more history and pattern, I might listen to a case of repeated collusion, but if it was just a one-off weird occurrence, I would say misclick or soft-play are equally likely.

 

[DZPoker]

The thing I'm stuck on is how many people have said things along the lines of "a novice player wouldn't do that", "weird betting for a novice", etc. If she's really a novice with some knowledge but little experience...there's literally no telling what she would do with AA at a random time in a random tournament with a random number of good/bad/folded hands already played.

I also don't see how we trust the BF had AK....just because he said? So you all tell the truth whenever someone asks what you folded??

Sorry...I'm not seeing collusion here...I'm seeing a hand that went poorly for the OP. Voted accordingly.

 

[BGinGA]

Only collusion I see as likely is the the BF's fold... after she told him she had aces. Matters not his actual hand ...

Even if she didn't say so, he may have picked up a live read.

Unless in separate rooms (impossible to enforce), multiple online players should never be in the same location. If your host allows it, then I would consider the game suspect -- the possibility of cheating exists.

 

[gopherblue]

^^^ +1. If they were both in the same household during the tourney, there was a zero percent chance he was unaware of her hand. (And that is at best...at worst, he was playing both screens simultaneously.) Thus, collusion. I have amended my vote accordingly.