Tourney Was this couple colluding? (1 Viewer)

[Taghkanic]

Was this couple colluding? Interested to hear what people think...
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GAME: Online poker club, nightly tourney

VILLAINS: A couple in their 30s, who live together. Boyfriend is an experienced player I’ve battled with many times for several years. Girlfriend only recently joined the club; when playing live, she drives him to games and sits behind him. Never seen her play until the past couple of weeks.

TOURNEY: I’m the second-biggest stack with about 200 BB and have them both covered. We’re only at the third level. It’s a rebuy tourney. Boyfriend has already rebought once.

MY HAND: I have AKo in UTG+2

ACTION:

• Two loose passive players limp 400
• Hero raises a standard 3x to 1,200
• Girlfriend calls
• Boyfriend on the button re-raises to 3,600
• Limpers call
• Hero calls
• Girlfriend 4bets to 14,000
• Boyfriend who 3bet me folds
• Limpers fold
• I call
• Flop is 433 with a flush draw
• Girlfriend bets 30K
• I fold
• Girlfriend shows AA
• I ask the Boyfriend what he had. He claims he had “AK.”

DISCUSSION in thread...

 

[Taghkanic]

Reasons why I suspect they might have been colluding:

• A novice player with AA almost never flats a modest preflop 3x raise
• His 4bet/fold looks like he’s building a pot and/or giving her protection and/or providing her the chance to 5bet
• Her 5bet is the only time I’ve ever seen her do that in 2-3 sessions
• In the 2-3 times I’ve played with them both online, they seem to avoid raising/battling each other
• They have the motivation and the opportunity
• Most of all, Boyfriend’s claim to have had AK seems like an improbable cover story, since I “also” had AK and Girlfriend had AA

 

[slisk250]

I wouldn’t be playing any on line tourney where any opponents could be at the same location

 

[Taghkanic]

Reasons why I can’t say for sure they were colluding:

• Most people aren’t skeezy enough to collude even when the opportunity presents itself
• Shit happens in poker; it could have been AA vs AK and AK
• No way to prove it

 

[upNdown]

I always assume couples are colluding.
Tough to be certain here, if the girlfriend is an incompetent newbie. But flatting then 4-betting from that position is a move I’ve never seen before.

 

[Eriks]

Suspicious, but why show the aces if there was funny business going on?

 

[Taghkanic]

I wouldn’t be playing any on line tourney where any opponents could be at the same location

I agree in general. But this is a tourney series I’ve been in, along with “Boyfriend” for some time; “Girlfriend” only just joined recently. So I would be more likely to raise the question with the host rather than abandon it immediately because they are a couple.

Note: He rebought three times and busted early. She bubbled. I placed third. So it worked out OK.

 

[Taghkanic]

Suspicious, but why show the aces if there was funny business going on?

I think a lot of less experienced players love to show AA almost no matter what happens.

 

[Eriks]

I think a lot of less experienced players love to show AA almost no matter what happens.

Perhaps, but still a strange thing to do in this instance assuming they were colluding. If she doesn’t show, it’s still weird but could be some kind of bluff.

 

[Frogzilla]

I think these are pretty common scenarios, and if they didn’t live together you wouldn’t have thought twice. Hard to say.

1) Flat then reraise from soft opponents is basically a face up AA in my experience

2) AK 3 betting is pretty standard, the fold is tight but maybe he’s also got a read on her 4-bet range

3) tight 4-betting range is very common

 

[shorticus]

I think a lot of less experienced players love to show AA almost no matter what happens.

If they are cheating exposing cards is never beneficial cause it helps put the pieces together.

 

[shorticus]

I think these are pretty common scenarios, and if they didn’t live together you wouldn’t have thought twice. Hard to say.

1) Flat then reraise from soft opponents is basically a face up AA in my experience

2) AK 3 betting is pretty standard, the fold is tight but maybe he’s also got a read on her 4-bet range

3) tight 4-betting range is very common

Unfortunately I agree with the guy who crippled my stack in the tourney last night.

 

[MrWitti]

What I sometimes noticed is, that couples dont wanna bust/hurt each other.
First move was maybe an attempt to trap you. The reraise a warning towards her bf that she is holding the goods and go out.
I vote maybe but would keep an eye open if such behaviors repeated

 

[Taghkanic]

If they are cheating exposing cards is never beneficial cause it helps put the pieces together.

Yes, except she is not experienced/crafty. And her showing AA then him saying he had AK makes for a good cover.

 

[Rieguy]

It is hard to tell with the information available, but both of them volunteering their hands makes it less suspicious in my opinion. You are also saying she is not a regular player, so her betting pattern being seemingly abnormal to regulars like us does not mean all too much. There could be some subconscious collusion, due to the relation, but I don't even like using that term since we all obviously play hands differently depending on the opponent and how well we know their style/patterns. With just this one hand as an example and the info provided, I have a tough time casting a vote. I do agree that two people likely in the same room with such a close relation is not an optimal scenario and I would tread carefully if I was not good friends with them (enough to cast doubt on their intentions) in the first place.

 

[shorticus]

Yes, except she is not experienced/crafty. And her showing AA then him saying he had AK makes for a good cover.

I mean if you have suspicions, I’m going to assume that something is happening subconsciously that is triggering your instinct. I can’t imagine that you would see one hand played a certain way and automatically assume collusion.

I’m usually a benefit of doubt type of person so I may be looking at this passively.

 

[Taghkanic]

I think these are pretty common scenarios, and if they didn’t live together you wouldn’t have thought twice.

What made me post this poll was Boyfriend claiming he had AK. Otherwise, I’d just shrug and see if other weirdness happens again.

I agree that otherwise it is fairly standard, though her flat of AA of a 3bet over the SB, BB and two limpers (who I’m sure would have called the 1,200 if Boyfriend had not reraised me, and maybe the BB as well). But maybe she doesn’t yet realize that AA is in not the best shape against 4 opponents.

 

[Taghkanic]

I mean if you have suspicions, I’m going to assume that something is happening subconsciously that is triggering your instinct.

Only that in the several sessions so far with both of them, I’ve not noticed them reraising each other or otherwise battling. If she raises, I see him folding and vice versa. But the sample size is small.

Probably this boils down to “keep your eyes open” but don’t get too crazy. If anything, I’d be more worried about smaller favors they could do each other (e.g. say she gets to the river with two pair, a diamond flush draw comes in, and he yells over to her that he folded the Ad). Even getting a little extra data can be a big leg up in these tourneys.

 

[upNdown]

though her flat of AA of a 3bet over the SB, BB and two limpers

I’m not willing to give it to her both ways. If she’s too passive to re-raise on her first action, she should almost certainly be too passive to 4-bet on the same street.
If she’s savvy enough to try to isolate with AA, she should realize how dangerous it is to flat the first time around (when 3 players had already VPIPed)

 

[shorticus]

I’m not willing to give it to her both ways. If she’s too passive to re-raise on her first action, she should almost certainly be too passive to 4-bet on the same street.
If she’s savvy enough to try to isolate with AA, she should realize how dangerous it is to flat the first time around (when 3 players had already VPIPed)

Also a fair assessment.

 

[Taghkanic]

Side note: I always get confused about whether a raise over limpers is considered a 3bet or an open.

 

[ekricket]

I’m not willing to give it to her both ways. If she’s too passive to re-raise on her first action, she should almost certainly be too passive to 4-bet on the same street.
If she’s savvy enough to try to isolate with AA, she should realize how dangerous it is to flat the first time around (when 3 players had already VPIPed)

she’s a beginning player. If she had any strategy thoughts here I’d be surprised.

 

[upNdown]

edit - I’ll start a new thread

 

[Taghkanic]

she’s a beginning player. If she had any strategy thoughts here I’d be surprised.

Heh. But my default assumption would be that a newbie’s thoughts go more like, “WHOA WHOA WHOA I HAVE ACES — RAISE!!!!!”

But maybe my 3x gave her pause for some reason. Or maybe she thought my raise/her flat would lead to the blinds and limpers folding, and us getting heads up to the flop. (These particular loose passive players... Not gonna fold OOP to 3x when a decent pot is developing.)

A wrinkle here is that while she is not an experienced player to my knowledge, she has *watched* a ton of poker. Per above, for whatever reason she seems to drive him to all his games and the local casino as well, and spectate while he plays.

 

[shorticus]

@Taghkanic you always have the best story threads lol

@ekricket based on the comments, I’m assuming you’re part of this game as well? What are your thoughts?

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't think @ekricket is in this game (but if so, hey, had no idea!).

 

[shorticus]

I don't think @ekricket is in this game (but if so, hey, had no idea!).

My bad, that was his first comment. Thought he had been commenting throughout. Sorry @ekricket

 

[BearMetal]

@Taghkanic ... AK comes up more than you think...

 

[ekricket]

@Taghkanic you always have the best story threads lol

@ekricket based on the comments, I’m assuming you’re part of this game as well? What are your thoughts?

Lol I’m part of the game of poker, just not this particular game. I play in two groups, both of which have couples in them. One is online and one live. If anybody’s colluding it’s not helping them is all I got to say.

for anyone that suspects collusion, I’d say try it. Get a buddy and try to collude at the table. I’ll laugh my ass off. Just thinking through how you would do it consistently makes me laugh. For instance here, talk through the hand from the point of view of the colluders. How does she signal to him he should fold instead of reraising? By raising? How did he know to raise her flat call and then fold to her reraise instead of getting more of the other players money in?

I’d just ask her to recount the hand later and see what she says. She might have thought she had A4 until she looked again.

 

[Frogzilla]

Lol I’m part of the game of poker, just not this particular game. I play in two groups, both of which have couples in them. One is online and one live. If anybody’s colluding it’s not helping them is all I got to say.

for anyone that suspects collusion, I’d say try it. Get a buddy and try to collude at the table. I’ll laugh my ass off. Just thinking through how you would do it consistently makes me laugh. For instance here, talk through the hand from the point of view of the colluders. How does she signal to him he should fold instead of reraising? By raising? How did he know to raise her flat call and then fold to her reraise instead of getting more of the other players money in?

I’d just ask her to recount the hand later and see what she says. She might have thought she had A4 until she looked again.

It’s online right? The signaling part is easy “hey, I have AA, can you reopen the action so I can make my move on this sucker”