Was I wrong? (1 Viewer)

JJ+ is 24 hands. AKo, AQs is 20 hands. There are roughly a thousand hands folding. (Hero's pocket sixes block a bunch of hands out of the 1,282 remaining)

So hero gathers in the blinds and antes uncontested 1,000 times, is a 52/48 favorite 20 times and an 20/80 dog 24 times. This seems like a pretty sweet proposition to me. Sign me up.

Fear? That is the other guy's problem -=- DrStrange
 
So do you fold the small blind or limp in and hope he doesn't raise?



I think if I waited any longer and my stack got shorter (those antes add up fast) it would quickly get to the point where my shove would have zero fold equity.

It would depend on what we saw on previous hands. If he's playing tight, I might limp in and fold to any raise. If he's shown any aggressiveness, I'd flat fold. Pocket pair occur 1 in 17 hands. That's 2 orbits, or ~4 BB. I'd much rather wait for another time when I was the caller vs a middle-to-big stack, because the middle-to-big stack
  • Likely has a bigger range than a short stack thus increasing the chance that 66 would hold.
  • Carries the fold equity for you.
Mind you, if you had 66 vs a player with 50+ BB, I'd insta jam. It's who you are shoving against, and what he's called you with the last time you shoved against him.


I cannot disagree with the Doctor's logic though. I prefer the fold, but I accept the "bluff" value of the shove as being +EV.

That said, You can run through my past trip reports and see the number of times me or Mrs PZ have been short-stacked and cashed/finished deep in the money. Short-stack poker is a very different animal, and cannot be played with cash game odds.
 
I was watching the rate at which players were dropping, time elapsed per orbit at my table, and the orbits left in my stack (between 3 & 4). My estimate was that I had a 40% chance of folding to the money and a 95% chance that the big blind didn't have a hand capable of calling.
 
hero gathers in the blinds and antes uncontested 1,000 times, is a 52/48 favorite 20 times and an 20/80 dog 24 times. This seems like a pretty sweet proposition to me. Sign me up.
Exactly. A sweet deal, even if losing 100% of those other 44 times. I'm shoving here with any two cards, and taking my 1000:44 chances. Any wins if I get called are a bonus.
 
It would depend on what we saw on previous hands..

A little more history. I had been moved to the table 45 minutes to an hour earlier. I was short stacked when I came in. My play at the table consisted of 5 shoves. Three times were steal opportunities where I picked up the blinds and antes. The other times my kings beat AQ and my aces beat villain's AK.

Mind you, if you had 66 vs a player with 50+ BB, I'd insta jam. It's who you are shoving against, and what he's called you with the last time you shoved against him.

Can you explain why you jam against a larger stack? You have much much less fold equity against the larger stack.
 
I was watching the rate at which players were dropping, time elapsed per orbit at my table, and the orbits left in my stack (between 3 & 4). My estimate was that I had a 40% chance of folding to the money and a 95% chance that the big blind didn't have a hand capable of calling.

Both of those numbers sound about right. I think you were going to have to shove at least once and double up. Shove and steal - it buys you an orbit. One orbit is good, but my first post indicated it was high risk, low value. Not "right call" or "wrong call", but high risk with a low reward. I would not lambaste you (or anyone else) for your move, but in said case, you could have shoved against him with anything, because the decision here isn't shove with 66. Your cards don't matter. the shove is all about him folding, or you losing.
 
Can you explain why you jam against a larger stack? You have much much less fold equity against the larger stack.

You have 8 BB. You have little to no fold-equity right now. You need to double up, not steal blinds.

The bigger the stack the bigger the range, especially near the bubble. You want an opponent who has nothing to lose by playing against you. That's how you double up.

With the size of the event, fold equity means so little when you are short-stacked that you may as well forget it. 20BB isn't fold equity vs an opponent with 200BB.
 
Actually, one more steal would have gotten me over the line. I was hoping for a fold.

In that case, 66 was irrelevant to the conversation. Your move should have been made "blind" (only looking so villain didn't know you were playing blind).
 
The problem with apps, is they teach the math, but not the psychology behind the game.

I mostly agree, there's a lot more to poker (live especially) than the math. However, I think short stack poker (less than 15 BBs) can pretty much be boiled down to a shove/fold math problem.

If BB is tanking over calling with JJ, you should be shoving with your entire range against him.

Exactly. The tank with JJ just proves the point (IMO) that you can shove super wide here profitably.
 
Jam here and you risk $1,500 for a single orbit worth of blinds/anties

In nit logic, every time you shove your piddling stack, you're "risk[ing] $1,500," and all you stand to win is "a single orbit worth of blinds/antes." This is why nits so rarely steal blinds and small pots; they don't see the value in it. It's either double up or lose everything.

The fact of the matter is that you paid $1,500 to enter the tournament already. That money is gone. All you have now is that piddling stack, not $1,500, and all it represents is some fraction of a chance to fold your way into a minimum cash—while a field of other people try to do the same thing.

Everyone else who doesn't see the value in stealing blinds has the same chance as you do. They're all sitting around waiting for a big pair or AK to make a move, even if they're up against one opponent who's going to fold 95% of the time. When they catch the big hand, they win 1.5 BB plus antes that 95% of the time, same as shoving with 66 or 38o. And that rare occasion when it's big hand versus big hand, you're 4:1 to double up (or a 4:1 dog), or maybe a coin flip, but now we're just talking about letting it come down to the luck of the draw.

There's something to be said for playing for survival. And if OP were down to three or four places out of the money, I think I'd give more consideration to trying to fold his way to a min cash. But 35 places out of the money, when the blinds and antes are like 30% of your stack, and you have a 95% chance to steal them, it's not even a decision. Steal away until you think your opponents might get suspicious and start calling call you wider.

Just because OP got unlucky and ran into a very unlikely big pair here doesn't mean a shove was wrong. Shoving was the right move, and it's not even close.
 
So that's like 50 recommendations for shove, 1 recommendation for fold.

:coffee:

I stated my reasons, and the only counter point was to shove just to steal a blind.
 
Zombie, you are not just stealing a blind, you are buying another orbit. At this point in the tournament, that's huge. We've given you math arguments as to why it's the right move. I guess it's true what they say, you can lead a donkey to water but you can't make him drink.
 

Stuff like this is why I don't like playing NLHE (especially tournaments) nearly as much as I used to, and why I vastly prefer other variants and mixed games. Competing at games where anyone can go online and get a cheat sheet is just not as fun or interesting as competing with everyone by your own skills and wits.
 
Stuff like this is why I don't like playing NLHE (especially tournaments) nearly as much as I used to, and why I vastly prefer other variants and mixed games. Competing at games where anyone can go online and get a cheat sheet is just not as fun or interesting as competing with everyone by your own skills and wits.

Is this pro tip sheet, or I-am-NIT-and-regularly-run-my-stack-short-because-I-am-so-risk-adverse-that-I-don't-leave-my-house tip sheet?

WHEN DID POKER CHIP FORUM TURN INTO NIT LIVES QUARTERLY?!?!
 
Stuff like this is why I don't like playing NLHE (especially tournaments) nearly as much as I used to, and why I vastly prefer other variants and mixed games. Competing at games where anyone can go online and get a cheat sheet is just not as fun or interesting as competing with everyone by your own skills and wits.

This is exactly why I love NHLE. If everybody pulled out (or memorized) a chart the game would be very dull and predictable. Change it up. Get the reads. Do the math and use it as a tool, but not the only tool.

...or flip for mortgages. I feel pretty good that my house is pretty cheap compared to Bergs, so that would be +EV for me...
 
This is exactly why I love NHLE. If everybody pulled out (or memorized) a chart the game would be very dull and predictable.

This kinda is how a lot of people play NLHE these days, though. They've got their uniform starting-hand requirements, they range opponents well, they know their odds off the tops of their heads, blah blah blah.

Rewind back to 2000 and practically no one knew this stuff. Even something as simple as fold equity was considered advanced knowledge. Now you can hardly find a game where at least half the players aren't conversant about it. The poker population has learned NLHE pretty thoroughly at this point. People are reading books and going online and studying it by the thousands, and those who aren't just get crushed in an hour and go home. And it's not even fun most of the time.

There's still room for skilled players to have an edge, but it's a slim edge, and a lot of it ends up in the rake box.
 
There's still room for skilled players to have an edge, but it's a slim edge, and a lot of it ends up in the rake box.

...only in cash games. Tournaments are all about squeezing the opponents for that edge.

I avoid cash games, though I'm profitable in them. I prefer the tournaments. You are unlikely to find me in an strategy thread involving cash game tactics, because it's different. Psychology is an edge that you can use or ignore. I choose to use it, but that was my major in college.
 
...only in cash games. Tournaments are all about squeezing the opponents for that edge.

You squeeze your opponents for your edge in cash games too. Where else would it come from? And tournaments have a rake. They just call it a "fee," but it's the same thing. Each player puts in a dollar, but only 90 cents or whatever comes out.

In either form, if you have players of equal skill playing in the same game, they're all essentially pitching in to pay the house for the privilege of letting them flip coins with each other. The more skilled the poker population gets at a particular game, the closer it gets to that situation.
 
...only in cash games. Tournaments are all about squeezing the opponents for that edge.

I avoid cash games, though I'm profitable in them. I prefer the tournaments. You are unlikely to find me in an strategy thread involving cash game tactics, because it's different. Psychology is an edge that you can use or ignore. I choose to use it, but that was my major in college.

This is the craziest post I have seen in a strat thread in along time. And I’m including the on where you advocate a fold heads up with 66 with 8bb left.

Have you never heard of ICM? Squeezing every edge is not what good tourney play is about. It is good cash game play if you’re properly rolled though.
 
Stuff like this is why I don't like playing NLHE (especially tournaments) nearly as much as I used to, and why I vastly prefer other variants and mixed games. Competing at games where anyone can go online and get a cheat sheet is just not as fun or interesting as competing with everyone by your own skills and wits.

I get that, and it's part of the math-based game theory whiz-kid revolution in NLHE in recent years. Most players have access to such guides. It's also one of the underlying reasons Libratus AI kicked the collective asses of top HU pros at Carnegie Mellon. So much for lol live reads.
 
This is a mandatory jam at 6 bbs. You ran into the top of a nit's range. Jamming 100% against this guy in blind vs blind is probably correct because he is folding almost everything and you pick up critical blinds and antes.

Jacks are an instant call. If the 4 minute tank happened to me, I would have exploded.
 
All this talk about how everyone knows everything these days, it's true to a point, but I still run into tournaments all the time where the table is loaded with people who are tanking for several minutes with pocket jacks in the situation in the OP. The aquarium is still very, very well-stocked, and with all the knowledge that is out there these days – it is very reassuring that there is still such a massive pool of weak players.
 

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