$140 Tournament Hand, Wrong Fold? (1 Viewer)

[CoinSlotPoker]

In a recent tournament I had made it pretty deep with a good stack. The blinds were 4,000/8,000 with a 4,000 BB ante. My stack preflop was around 120,000 when I got pocket kings UTG +1. I raised to 16,000 and was called by only the LJ so we went heads up to a Jh, 9h, 7s flop. I c-bet 20,000 and was called. The turn was an Ace of spades and I checked to him and he checked back. The river was a 2 of clubs, so a complete brick and I was ready to call a bet from him if need be. I checked to him and he ripped it all in with a stack that covered me considerably. I tanked for about 2 minutes before making the fold. I'm unsure if I should've called because it seemed like a bluff but I didn't even have top pair. I'm trying to think of which value hands take this line and I can't think of any. If I were to have called and won I likely would've made it to the final table at least. Let me know if you would've made the fold.

 

[kaimat]

I would've bet instead of checking.

 

[kmccormick100]

After he checks back on the turn Ace I'm definitely leading the river for value for something in the 30k region probably. If he jams over the top of you you can fold and still have a few BBs left. When you check the river it sets up a killer bluff spot for him to bluff all of his missed flush draws as well as hands like QT, KT, KQ etc. There aren't many value hands that are shoving all-in here on the river, so I also probably call his shove, but I prefer leading vs calling off.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Did you have any reads on Villain? Was he known to slow play and trap, or was he betting TP aggressively prior to this hand?

A good sized bet on the turn might have either led him to fold, or told you if he had top pair. The check-check instead probably confirmed to him that you didn't have an A.

Checking again on the brick river was an open invitation for him to push you off the pot (in my very limited opinion) with Jx, busted draws, or air.

On the bright side, you only lost about 1/3 of your stack (36,000/120,000ish), and still had 10BB left. On the down side, you lost about 1/3 of your stack, and only had 10BB left.

 

[WedgeRock]

You had 15xBB? What were the other stacks at the table?

 

[CoinSlotPoker]

After he checks back on the turn Ace I'm definitely leading the river for value for something in the 30k region probably. If he jams over the top of you you can fold and still have a few BBs left. When you check the river it sets up a killer bluff spot for him to bluff all of his missed flush draws as well as hands like QT, KT, KQ etc. There aren't many value hands that are shoving all-in here on the river, so I also probably call his shove, but I prefer leading vs calling off.

Yeah that makes sense I suspected it was probably the wrong fold. Leading for value was definitely the right move. thank you

You had 15xBB? What were the other stacks at the table?

Yes and the other stacks were mostly smaller around 10 BB except for the villain who had a stack of around 35 BB

 

[WedgeRock]

Buyin was $140? Or prize pool was $140?

Yes and the other stacks were mostly smaller around 10 BB except for the villain who had a stack of around 35 BB

I think my PF raise is more than 2xBB, especially with 2BBs in the pot already. Even more so with a ton of action behind you. Fold out the draws.

With the 2.5BB cBet into a 4BB pot, I assume you were looking for a full double up rather than trying to take down the pot?

I'm trying to think of which value hands take this line and I can't think of any.

Maybe it wasn't a value hand. Maybe it was a semi-bluff on a draw like hearts or a straight? QhTh? AhXh? QTo? I think you have to fold there, as played. You gave him control of the pot, checking the ace and the river.

Leading for value was definitely the right move.

What value? Betting the ace with a 9BB pot and a stack of 5.5BB, your only option is to jam, IMO. You may be already beat, tho. And if not, he has a straight and/or flush draw. Kinda read-dependent based on this particular villain's style.

After he checks back on the turn Ace I'm definitely leading the river for value for something in the 30k region probably. If he jams over the top of you you can fold and still have a few BBs left.

30k into a pot of 88k? Seems scared, and leaves you with just over 2BBs with the blinds hitting you in 2 hands if you fold out.

I'm jamming PF with 10BBs to avoid SPR issues that require villain to call post flop if he gets any piece. Taking down the blinds and ante increases your stack 20%!

 

[kmccormick100]

Buyin was $140? Or prize pool was $140?


I think my PF raise is more than 2xBB, especially with 2BBs in the pot already. Even more so with a ton of action behind you. Fold out the draws.

With the 2.5BB cBet into a 4BB pot, I assume you were looking for a full double up rather than trying to take down the pot?


Maybe it wasn't a value hand. Maybe it was a semi-bluff on a draw like hearts or a straight? QhTh? AhXh? QTo? I think you have to fold there, as played. You gave him control of the pot, checking the ace and the river.



What value? Betting the ace with a 9BB pot and a stack of 5.5BB, your only option is to jam, IMO. You may be already beat, tho. And if not, he has a straight and/or flush draw. Kinda read-dependent based on this particular villain's style.


30k into a pot of 88k? Seems scared, and leaves you with just over 2BBs with the blinds hitting you in 2 hands if you fold out.

I'm jamming PF with 10BBs to avoid SPR issues that require villain to call post flop if he gets any piece. Taking down the blinds and ante increases your stack 20%!

Blinds at 4k/8k = 15bb pre flop. Betting 3.5bb into 13.5bb pot prevents getting bluffed and can get value from Jx and 9x and leaves hero with ~7bb which isn't ideal, but is playable. But I'm not a short stack expert, so ymmv.

 

[WedgeRock]

Blinds at 4k/8k = 15bb pre flop. Betting 3.5bb into 13.5bb pot prevents getting bluffed and can get value from Jx and 9x and leaves hero with ~7bb which isn't ideal, but is playable. But I'm not a short stack expert, so ymmv.

Yeah, I think you're right he had 15BBs before the hand and a stack of 10.5BBs when the ace hit (2BB PF and 2.5BB on the flop). Maff is hard.

Betting almost 4BB into a 9BB pot, leaves him less than 7BBs, but that is better than the 2BBs left that I was calculating.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Maff is hard.

With the 2.5BB cBet into a 4BB pot...

Pot size after PF bets is 6BB (SB 0.5 + BB 1 + BBA 0.5 +hero 2BB + Villain 2BB). Hero's c-bet is 2.5BB into 6BB pot.

After flop bet, pot is 11BB, Hero has ~10.5BB left.

At what point does "pot committed" become real? (serious question...)

In a tournament, yes, staying alive and conserving chips means something, but at some point you have to take a risk to get ahead. I think jamming the flop would have been the better move. Either Villain folds (most likely scenario, and you win), Villain calls with trips or AA (least likely scenario, and you lose) or Villain calls with a drawing hand (could go either way, but you get your money in while ahead, and he's not pushing you off the pot on a later street).

Probably I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time (or the last), and there are others who understand the nuances of NLHE in general and NLHE tournament play specifically much better than I do.

 

[upNdown]

I think jamming the flop would have been the better move.

That's my thought.

As played, I don't hate the fold, but I hate the play that got you to that point.

 

[CoinSlotPoker]

Did you have any reads on Villain? Was he known to slow play and trap, or was he betting TP aggressively prior to this hand?

A good sized bet on the turn might have either led him to fold, or told you if he had top pair. The check-check instead probably confirmed to him that you didn't have an A.

Checking again on the brick river was an open invitation for him to push you off the pot (in my very limited opinion) with Jx, busted draws, or air.

On the bright side, you only lost about 1/3 of your stack (36,000/120,000ish), and still had 10BB left. On the down side, you lost about 1/3 of your stack, and only had 10BB left.

Didn't have any reads on him because I had just been moved to that table. One of the reasons I folded was because I only lost 1/3 of my stack and didn't want to risk it all on a guy I haven't seen play before. Should've bet the river for sure though.

 

[BGinGA]

I think raise-pre jam-the-flop or limp-jam pre-flop are both better ways to play KK given the tournament / stack / position circumstances. Hard to get less value from pocket kings with a short stack than how it was played.

 

[ontheriver51]

There is plenty of good advice here on how you could/should have played the hand. As played, I think folding is the only option. Best to not get yourself into that spot. If you were much deeper in a cash game, I’m a huge fan of cbet flop, check turn, call bluff on river, but I don’t think it makes any sense here