Two Deck Snafu (4 Viewers)

[HiveKueen]

Just when you think you've seen it all...

I've been playing in 2-deck leagues now for 17 years and something completely novel and unexpected happened in my league game last night.

Background: We use 2 decks with shuffle behind.

Dealer, dealing the Green deck (Chips and Games decks), deals out the players' hands. Preflop action completes and then, yikes, the previous dealer, who is shuffling the Red deck, deals out the board to the two all-in players. We didn't catch the problem until after the hand completed but before the pot had been pushed.

Was totally not ready for this.

In this particular case, it was possible to correct the error by re-dealing the board cards with the Green stub!

In thinking about it today though, i realize this could have been a game ending scenario!

What we plan to do to minimize the possibility of this going forward (it cannot be 100% prevented unless we go to one deck):
1. use 2 completely different size and face design of card decks at the table to increase the possibility the mis-deal gets caught right away.
2. ??? your thoughts/ideas??

brainstorming...
- shuffle two behind instead of one?
- shuffle ahead instead of behind?
- new rule, no handling the shuffle deck during the play of a hand?? defeats purpose of two decks??

I also need to update my House Rules to include how this situation gets handled. Had this been a multi-way pot with post flop action, the game would have been over (cancelled) because we would not have been able to reconstruct the stacks (I know, I know, we should all be keeping better track of our stacks).

Updates after comment below. We don't use a shuffler machine. We do use a dealer button. We are playing tournaments (thank goodness), not cash (this specific brand of misdeal in a cash game is nightmarish to think about).

Open to all commentary and suggestions so all league runners can benefit from this experience!
HiveKueen

 

[BPTDirector]

We have a player that has been guilty of this more than once. Now everyone polices him when he is shuffling.

 

[Labrat]

Why would somebody who's just dealt the previous hand feel the need to toss out the board cards??

 

[buffalojim]

Lol, I've done this more than once. 100% alcohol induced. We just gave back all the cash and replayed the hand. Good enough.

 

[merkong]

Shuffler behind places cut card on top of shuffler deck and places it next to them to pass to next dealer when hand is finished.

Current dealer deals and yells “What the absolute hell?” if anything other than what’s outlined above takes place.

 

[calfdemon]

We also shuffle behind and had a scenario once during a cash game where the current dealer dealt the cards and the flop, then the previous dealer finished shuffling and put the previous deck next to the dealer for the upcoming cut. In the meantime, there was an all in and a call off the flop. The current dealer proceeded to pick up the old deck and deliver the turn and river from the wrong deck.

The all in won the hand initially, but we saw the wrong color burn cards in the muck and called foul. The proper cards were dealt and the all in player was felted. There was no issue over it as everyone saw what happened but the player that was dealing caught a lot of (friendly) shit and still does to this day when he deals.

 

[buffalojim]

We also shuffle behind and had a scenario once during a cash game where the current dealer dealt the cards and the flop, then the previous dealer finished shuffling and put the previous deck next to the dealer for the upcoming cut. In the meantime, there was an all in and a call off the flop. The current dealer proceeded to pick up the old deck and deliver the turn and river from the wrong deck.

The all in won the hand initially, but we saw the wrong color burn cards in the muck and called foul. The proper cards were dealt and the all in player was felted. There was no issue over it as everyone saw what happened but the player that was dealing caught a lot of (friendly) shit and still does to this day when he deals.

Yeah, it happens, not everyone is laser focused all the time so it happens. If people are getting really upset and can't deal with this occasional mistake then start including a dealer fee and get a dedicated deal or shuffle machine.

 

[nynit]

Did the previous dealer burn before dealing out the board? I'd hope someone would catch the red card back among the green. Also do you use a dealer button? I've found using one helps my game run smoother, although our problem is usually that nobody deals rather than an extra person does!

 

[chopper]

Yes to House Rules outlining expected Self-Deal Procedures. When to shuffle, where to place cards and cut-card, who cuts, etc….
Dealers not paying attention is a pet peeve so I’m biased, but maybe a House Rule (if there isn’t already) highlighting the Responsibility of the dealer in the self-dealt game. In particular keeping the action moving. (Blows my mind when dealer says “oh it’s on me?” )

 

[ThrowBack]

We have a nice deck of copags and then usually a deck of something with pictures on it

 

[Sal Bandini]

ONCE in 17 years???

I wouldn't waste a single second on it.

 

[thePokerClub]

I’ve definitely seen things like this it all boils down to the dealer managing the table correctly.

 

[upNdown]

ONCE in 17 years???

I wouldn't waste a single second on it.

Right? Something tells me these fellas don’t do a lot of drinking or smoking.

 

[Dodger]

ONCE in 17 years???

I wouldn't waste a single second on it.

/thread

 

[HiveKueen]

Comments above suggest I not spend time on this issue because of how rare it is.

Others saying this has happened in a game they played in prompted me to give more thought to whether it is worth my time.

I've also asked for input from my co-host and another trusted player in the league.

After getting input and thinking it over I believe that I simply can't be unprepared for this to happen again. The reason is because an error like this has the potential to end the game (when the misdealt hand cannot be unwound back to the starting point), which is a pretty big consequence in a league context (seasons, points, season championships, etc.).

If we were just playing isolated tournaments, I'd be less concerned. A premature ending to the game is no big deal.

The other thing is that my league is always taking in new players, often someone who is unknown. So, I think I have to be ready for someone to intentionally make this mistake for the purpose of screwing up the game. Thankfully, I'd be shocked if any of the league regs would ever try this on purpose (though it was a league reg that misdealt cards and a league reg who didn't catch that someone else was dealing cards when he should have been - yes, two different people!).

So, I've purchased this 21 deck deal from thepokerstore.com, with the special request that the Elites be bridge, not poker, size. From now on, each table will have a bridge and poker size deck with very different backs!

I will start a new thread to share my reviews of these cards.

I sure wish that my favorite cards from Chips and Games were offered in more colors for the backs and bridge size decks (is anyone listening?? )!!

And I'm formulating a new rule in my House Rules supplement to the TDA rules. This is a WIP. I can post the final rule here if enough others are interested.

HK

 

[foreverdev]

This has happened at my game, alcohol induced indeed. IIRC we played it with betting to the turn before someone noticed. I unplayed the hand and took the time to refund players their contributions to pot.
one of the major house rules I have is that what I say goes because it’s my house. I’m fair but firm and it covers all scenarios like this.

 

[TheOffalo]

So, I've purchased this 21 deck deal from thepokerstore.com, with the special request that the Elites be bridge, not poker, size. From now on, each table will have a bridge and poker size deck with very different backs!

This would be a great way to find out what your players (who don’t already have a preference) think about bridge vs. poker size decks.

 

[phys]

HiveKueen, I think you're right to take this seriously in a league context — Sal Bandini's "once in 17 years, don't sweat it" logic makes sense for a casual one-off tournament, but when you're running something with seasons, points, and a championship on the line, a hand that can't be reconstructed is a genuinely game-altering event. The stakes are just different.

The bridge/poker size + different backs combo is a smart physical solution. One additional protocol that can help: a hard rule that the shuffle deck doesn't leave the shuffler's hands or immediate control during a live hand. No passing it early, no setting it on the felt where someone can accidentally pick it up. The cut card on top of the deck (as merkong mentioned) is a great visible signal — it communicates "this deck isn't in play yet." Making that an explicit part of your deal procedure, not just an informal habit, gives you something to point to if it ever happens again.

On the rules side, TDA rules are actually pretty clear that a misdeal involving a boxed card (face-up card in the deck) generally means a redeal before action, but a hand that has already progressed with action gets murkier — you basically have to determine whether the integrity of the hand can be confirmed. Your instinct to treat an unresolvable situation as a cancelled hand and void the bets is consistent with how tournament directors generally handle it when there's no clean path to a correct result. The problem is that in a home game without a dedicated TD, those judgment calls can get contentious fast, which is exactly why having written house rules that anticipate the scenario is so valuable. Good luck with the rule draft — would be curious to see the final version.

 

[HiveKueen]

We will be adopting a new dealing procedure where all the burn cards get put out and the board cards get put on top of them. This combined with the different size, brand, color decks should minimize the chance of a two deck misdeal ending the game.

Update: the board cards will be dealt after each round of betting, not all at once.
HK

 

[TheYeti]

We will be adopting a new dealing procedure where all the burn cards get put out and the board cards get put on top of them. This combined with the different size, brand, color decks should minimize the chance of a two deck misdeal ending the game.
HK

Huh? Why bother with burn cards at all if you are pre-dealing the board?

 

[HiveKueen]

Huh? Why bother with burn cards at all if you are pre-dealing the board?

Not predealing the board. My description was a sweetened n condensed description of how the cards will be placed when dealt after each round of betting.

 

[nynit]

We actually had something similar happen last night. The dealer dealt the hands and flop with the blue deck then, after flop betting was done, picked up the wrong (red) deck to deal the turn. Multiple people called out the burn card being red and we were able to correct everything before any action. Our solution is to keep shuffled decks on the player's side away from the dealer.

 

[thePokerClub]

We actually had something similar happen last night. The dealer dealt the hands and flop with the blue deck then, after flop betting was done, picked up the wrong (red) deck to deal the turn. Multiple people called out the burn card being red and we were able to correct everything before any action. Our solution is to keep shuffled decks on the player's side away from the dealer.

I have been keeping an eye on this thread and this is actually a great call-out.

While we shuffle behind at my game, once that is done we immediately place the deck with the player in the small blind. Not that it is the intention to avoid situations like this - just more along the lines of 'next dealer being ready'.

What should we call this??? 'Shuffle behind, place ahead' ?

 

[UniLover]

Easy solution: get a shuffler! At my game there's only one deck on the table at a time. The other one's in the DM1 ready to go.

 

[HiveKueen]

So this past week, I adopted my new procedure for dealing the board cards, as described above (so the backs of the burn cards are highly visible). It was not intuitive and I had to think about what i was doing. How we deal the board cards is very very habitual and thoughtless. It was actually a little annoying to have to think about it.

This made me realize that I am going to need to roll this change out gradually one player per table at a time over many games. And, I need to get brand new players to adopt the procedure coming in the door.
HK

 

[HiveKueen]

Easy solution: get a shuffler! At my game there's only one deck on the table at a time. The other one's in the DM1 ready to go.

Maybe I can get all the players to chip in for two, one at each table!

 

[ekricket]

What should we call this??? 'Shuffle behind, place ahead' ?

Call it shuffle behind, leave behind.

I hate when I’m dealing and the shuffle behind guy feels like he has to rise up out if his seat, lean across me, and place the newly shuffled deck to the left of the small blind.

Just place it at my right elbow please. When I’m done dealing I’ll hand it to the SB. No need to put your 380lb head and torso in my personal space.
Nobody’s using it until I am done dealing, no matter how convenient you try to make it for the next dealer.

 

[Mandos]

Am i misreading this thread, or is shuffle behind part of the culprit in this scenario? i.e. alcohol/player who was just dealer 30 seconds previously having a deck of cards to handle and/or placing it right next to the current dealer leading to the wrong stub being used?

 

[HiveKueen]

…is shuffle behind part of the culprit in this scenario?

Without shuffle behind/ahead this doesn’t happen. But two decks is so advantageous relative to one that I can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. So yes, seeking ideas and suggestions short of using one deck.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Lol, I've done this more than once. 100% alcohol induced. We just gave back all the cash and replayed the hand. Good enough.

Yup. I've done it at a meetup. I was wasted. One of the reasons I just hope we can find a dedicated dealer. I like whiskey.