Dealer rigging deck suspicion (1 Viewer)

[02et]

I just played in a home game with many tables so someone at the table volunteers to deal/shuffle. Me and one other guy volunteered to deal for the game. So within 3-4 hours of play, the other dealer had dealt himself quads twice and a flopped straight flush against nut flush. In your opinion do you think that could be due to variance or do you think he was rigging the deck?

 

[GamingWithChips]

It sounds awfully lucky, considering these hands were all dealt to himself...Quads happen like once every 4 thousand hands or something, so twice in one night is exceptionally rare. Add on the straight flush? Even rarer!

But, just because it's rare, doesn't mean it's impossible. I think you need a larger sample size to gauge if this dealer is cheating or not.

 

[JMC9389]

Ask if you can bring a friend next game. Sit on opposite sides of the table and watch from the sides. Watch this person shuffle and deal and see if you notice anything.

 

[Jimulacrum]

One guy dealing himself quads twice and a straight flush once in a few hours is suspicious but doesn't prove anything.

Ask if you can bring a friend next game. Sit on opposite sides of the table and watch from the sides. Watch this person shuffle and deal and see if you notice anything.

This makes sense, but suppose you spot something. Now what do you do? You still can't prove it. It's just an ephemeral moment that you can't, say, show to the host to ensure the cheat gets 86ed. Even if you grab the deck in his hand mid-cheat à la "I caught a hanger, Sarge," life isn't a movie. You're not going to convince people he's cheating because the was at the bottom of the deck.

If you play with him again, surreptitiously record him while he's dealing, e.g., by propping up a phone to aim at him or wearing a hidden camera. If there are any more unusually big hands or coolers that stack other players in his favor, watch the video. Pay attention to how he collects the cards from the previous hand. Pay attention to how he shuffles, cuts, and deals. Compare his procedures and body language to other hands where nothing special happened for him.

I caught a cheat years ago and didn't do this, and it of course made my case harder. I'd been in communication with the host, and apparently I was convincing enough to get the cheat out of the game, but it's hard to expect people to take your word on such a severe accusation. Proof is better.

Also, be a dedicated dealer or be a dedicated player. No one should be playing and dealing for everyone. Nine times out of ten it'll be fine, but the tenth time you'll have a practiced cheat offering to deal every single hand, and that's obviously a disaster.

 

[JMC9389]

One guy dealing himself quads twice and a straight flush once in a few hours is suspicious but doesn't prove anything.


This makes sense, but suppose you spot something. Now what do you do? You still can't prove it. It's just an ephemeral moment that you can't, say, show to the host to ensure the cheat gets 86ed. Even if you grab the deck in his hand mid-cheat à la "I caught a hanger, Sarge," life isn't a movie. You're not going to convince people he's cheating because the was at the bottom of the deck.

If you play with him again, surreptitiously record him while he's dealing, e.g., by propping up a phone to aim at him or wearing a hidden camera. If there are any more unusually big hands or coolers that stack other players in his favor, watch the video. Pay attention to how he collects the cards from the previous hand. Pay attention to how he shuffles, cuts, and deals. Compare his procedures and body language to other hands where nothing special happened for him.

I caught a cheat years ago and didn't do this, and it of course made my case harder. I'd been in communication with the host, and apparently I was convincing enough to get the cheat out of the game, but it's hard to expect people to take your word on such a severe accusation. Proof is better.

Also, be a dedicated dealer or be a dedicated player. No one should be playing and dealing for everyone. Nine times out of ten it'll be fine, but the tenth time you'll have a practiced cheat offering to deal every single hand, and that's obviously a disaster.

I agree with all this. OP seems to only be in the suspicion stage. If they notice something early, they can approach the host and relay their observations and to keep an eye.

I dealt a cooler in which I stacked my good buddy a couple years back. Straight flush over rivered boat. Was ahead the whole way. No big hands between us or no coolers of that magnitude since. If the villain in this scenario comes up with big hands in big spots for a second game in a row, alarm bells are going off but as a one off, could have just been luck.

 

[chippitydoodah]

I just played in a home game with many tables so someone at the table volunteers to deal/shuffle. Me and one other guy volunteered to deal for the game. So within 3-4 hours of play, the other dealer had dealt himself quads twice and a flopped straight flush against nut flush. In your opinion do you think that could be due to variance or do you think he was rigging the deck?

Was his name George?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I agree with all this. OP seems to only be in the suspicion stage. If they notice something early, they can approach the host and relay their observations and to keep an eye.

I dealt a cooler in which I stacked my good buddy a couple years back. Straight flush over rivered boat. Was ahead the whole way. No big hands between us or no coolers of that magnitude since. If the villain in this scenario comes up with big hands in big spots for a second game in a row, alarm bells are going off but as a one off, could have just been luck.

I was dealer for the last hand of a dealer's choice game a couple weeks ago. We were down to 4-handed, and I was stuck for a bunch, so I went with a crazy pick: 9-card Double Board Hold'em (i.e., you can use any or all of your hole cards to make a hand with each board).

I not only dealt myself quad 4s, but I dealt it to myself in the hole, so it played on both boards.

Two other players got all-in against me with substantial stacks, but they only had full houses, and I scooped it all.

Of course, those two will remember this hand forever, but it was dealt honestly. Sometimes people just get lucky.

 

[springbox]

I just played in a home game with many tables so someone at the table volunteers to deal/shuffle. Me and one other guy volunteered to deal for the game. So within 3-4 hours of play, the other dealer had dealt himself quads twice and a flopped straight flush against nut flush. In your opinion do you think that could be due to variance or do you think he was rigging the deck?

This is hold 'em? Seems like a bit much, but certainly not outside the realm of possibility. The odds are admittedly much higher, but my friend got quads three times in two hours playing PLO last week, and I certainly wasn't stacking the deck for him. Unless no one else is paying any attention, you have to be a pretty decent mechanic to set yourself up that easily, especially at a game you weren't expecting to deal at. That being said, if this happens whenever he deals I'd get suspicious pretty quick.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Quads happen like once every 4 thousand hands or something, so twice in one night is exceptionally rare. Add on the straight flush? Even rarer!

I play in a NLHE league that has a high hand prize. One game had quad 4's overtaken less than 30 minutes later by quad K's. Later that evening quad A's showed up, followed shortly by a straight flush. Different winners and different dealers each time, and if I recall correctly, none were won by the person that shuffled the deck.

So variance does happen, but having the person that shuffled the deck win with three monsters is VERY unlikely.

There's lots of ways to spot someone stacking a deck, but one sure way to prevent it is to insist that one player (preferably other than the dealer) shuffles, and a different player cuts the deck. And watch for actual cuts (not a false cut where the top of the deck ends up on top again).

Using a cut card on the bottom of a deck can also help to prevent bottom dealing.

 

[Rhodeman77]

If this is a mixed game variant, definitely possible and even likely. Hold’em definitely throws up more red flags though. I was teaching a friend BumBum and the very first hand (dealing 5 hands out) there was flopped quad kings. By the river it would have lost to a SF. Definitely pay attention to this player/dealer.

 

[Rakrul]

I've seen enough card tricks on YT to tell you that you won't catch a card mechanic even with cameras. There's guys shuffling with the face cards up and you can't tell how he deals himself all the aces. Even bringing in a really good mechanic to watch him won't be conclusive.

And let's face it. If he was a mechanic, why give yourself quads twice and add SF on top of it? Why not K-high backdoor flush against a made straight?
It could be greed though. It's always the greed that gets them, so just see what happens the next time. If he rigged it, then he won't stop. Usually when someone at my table gets quads, they win a small pot on the turn. You rarely get a really good hand going up against you, so it's highly suspicious but not impossible. I belive we had 2 quads one night, as well as a SF, but the SF was with a rabbit hunt. Also 3 different winners.

PS! This is another reason why e.g. ShuffleTech is a good thing to have at your game.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I've seen enough card tricks on YT to tell you that you won't catch a card mechanic even with cameras. There's guys shuffling with the face cards up and you can't tell how he deals himself all the aces. Even bringing in a really good mechanic to watch him won't be conclusive.

And let's face it. If he was a mechanic, why give yourself quads twice and add SF on top of it? Why not K-high backdoor flush against a made straight?
It could be greed though. It's always the greed that gets them, so just see what happens the next time. If he rigged it, then he won't stop. Usually when someone at my table gets quads, they win a small pot on the turn. You rarely get a really good hand going up against you, so it's highly suspicious but not impossible. I belive we had 2 quads one night, as well as a SF, but the SF was with a rabbit hunt. Also 3 different winners.

PS! This is another reason why e.g. ShuffleTech is a good thing to have at your game.

You'd be surprised at the tricks people will pull. Some of them aren't sophisticated or well-hidden at all; they're just easy to get past a crowd of half-serious players who aren't paying close attention. I would not assume a skilled mechanic unless this player keeps getting rare matchups in his favor on his deal, and watching him hasn't produced any strong observations.

There's lots of ways to spot someone stacking a deck, but one sure way to prevent it is to insist that one player (preferably other than the dealer) shuffles, and a different player cuts the deck. And watch for actual cuts (not a false cut where the top of the deck ends up on top again).

Using a cut card on the bottom of a deck can also help to prevent bottom dealing.

This stuff all helps, but insist as you might, some games won't employ the shuffle-behind method, mandatory cuts, or even a cut card on the bottom. If OP's 3- to 4-table game is not already doing this stuff, good luck convincing them.

Moreover, if we're at the point where a cheat is suspected, abruptly instituting new dealing procedures is going to tell him people are suspicious, and from there he gets smarter and harder to catch. Recommend playing dumb and just recording and observing him for at least one game before taking any measures that could alert him.

 

[Rakrul]

Well, if you're giving yourself quads and two other boats and then you get sf and the other sod an a-high flush there's got to be some skill involved if it was malicious.

 

[Machine]

In your opinion do you think that could be due to variance or do you think he was rigging the deck?

Let me ask you a question: Who cut the deck after he shuffled?

"My Daddy told me, it don't matter how dumb they look, always cut the cards."

whom ever shuffled, someone else cuts

 

[Rakrul]

Let me ask you a question: Who cut the deck after he shuffled?

"My Daddy told me, it don't matter how dumb they look, always cut the cards."

whom ever shuffled, someone else cuts

This is very good advice. You don't do it solely to prevent cheating, you do it to avoid discussions about cheating.

 

[Jimulacrum]

This is very good advice. You don't do it solely to prevent cheating, you do it to avoid discussions about cheating.

Yup. The appearance of impropriety is nearly as bad as actual impropriety. The point of having these procedures isn't so that you can implement them in earnest when you suspect a cheat, but to preemptively make cheating more difficult across the board and avoid situations where anyone might raise a doubt.

 

[Chips523]

Yesterday at a home game with 18 players quads hit 4 different times in 8 hours. In the last 3 years the max had been 2 times. No foul play suspected but still unusual.

 

[BigGrizz]

This is why when I'm designated dealer (most of the time) I have other people shuffling. One person always shuffles the blue deck; another always shuffles the red deck. I cut then pick up the cards for dealing. Game runs faster and there is no way for me to influence the deck.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Was his name George?

Ok that went over everyone's heads. Was it @TheJestyr

 

[acezag]

If he is a mechanic, he's either really dumb or an adrenaline junky, ending his performance with such a flashy and notable hand.
IMO that kind of cheater can't help but keep doing the same obvious shit over and over.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Cheating scandal in Houston (Not the Astros)

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/182tDZRsDq/

 

[raynmanas]

I've seen enough card tricks on YT to tell you that you won't catch a card mechanic even with cameras. There's guys shuffling with the face cards up and you can't tell how he deals himself all the aces.

i too get jason ladanye videos in my feed, and can't f'n figure out how he does most of what he does.

 

[raynmanas]

insist as you might, some games won't employ the shuffle-behind method

i play in a well-established game that refuses to implement shuffle-behind. even putting the potential for cheating aside, it is just immeasurably more efficient than shuffle-ahead. amazing how even a large group of people can get so stuck in their ways.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Over 3 or 4 hours, its highly likely he's cheating. Unless you catch him dead to rights in a video or mid-hand there's little you can do or prove other than just not wanting to invite him back.

Humans have a hard time understanding big numbers, many people can't wrap their heads around the difference between a billion and a trillion: they're both huge numbers, that's all. Same thing with the confluence of these hands. Probability of getting dealt quads in 4 hours is low, getting it twice even lower, getting it twice only while you're dealing, exponentially lower. Plus flopping a straight flush, something that is rare itself. There's also the fact that he volunteered to deal, further pushing it from luck to machination. This all makes it orders of magnitude less likely to occur naturally. Exponential. Difference between winning $1000 on a scratchoff and winning the Powerball lottery for billions. Sure they're both lucky, but vastly different in probability.

All of this is enough for me not to invite him back if he's not a close friend, and if he's a close friend I would pull him aside and really question him. The numbers do not make sense, and the fact that these numbers happened when he was in a position to cheat and benefit from it cannot be discounted.

Maybe its the heater of a lifetime, just sorry it didn't happen at the WSOP.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Yesterday at a home game with 18 players quads hit 4 different times in 8 hours. In the last 3 years the max had been 2 times. No foul play suspected but still unusual.

For different people, with different dealers I assume? Twice the time played with at least twice the number of people. Still bananas, but way more likely than OP!

Just relating the two posts. Both are unlikely, one is astronimically more rare.

 

[dannyssteez]

Definitely suspicious to the point where I would be uncomfortable with him dealing or at the very least ask for someone else to cut the deck. Variance can be crazy however so it's far from conclusive proof.