Tourney Tourney Structure and Chip Breakdown (2 Viewers)

[Virtus]

Hey guys, I'm in the process of ordering my first set of non-dice chips. Waiting on my samples to arrive but am leaning towards either Majestics or Veneratis. Want to do a 600 ct Tourney set and display them in an acrylic bird cage.

We've been doing T5k tourneys but will be adding some T10k tourneys with the same blind structure:
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Color up 25s
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
Color up 100s
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000

We generally have 5-8 guys but I'm building this set around 10 players at our current stacks to give us some growing room and rebuys. We typically only have 1 or 2 rebuys per tournament. Also at these numbers we could reduce the starting stacks to accommodate more players if need be, we just like having large stacks when possible.

Option 1:
Starting stacks:
20 x 25
20 x 100
15 x 500
55 chips

Chip breakdown:
200 x 25
250 x 100
150 x 500

This will allow 10 starting stacks with enough leftover for 100s to color up all 25s at first break and 500s to color up all 100s at second break. I will also probably buy a barrel of 1000s and 5000s and keep them separate just in case we have multiple rebuys.

Option 2:
Starting stacks:
20 x 25
15 x 100
6 x 500
5 x 1000
46 chips

Chip breakdown:
200 x 25
200 x 100
100 x 500
100 x 1000

Again this will allow 10 starting stacks with enough leftover for all color ups: 25s to 100s, 100s to 500s, 500s to 1000s. Again would also have a separate barrel of 1000s and 5000s for extra buyins just in case.

Any thoughts, opinions, suggestions, advice? Thanks!

 

[Anthony Martino]

The jump from 500/1K to 1K/2K I've found to be pretty brutal. What's worked for me (based on suggestions from others here) is to change the blinds as follows:


YOUR STRUCTURE

400/800
500/1K
color up
1K/2K


MY RECOMMENDATION

400/800
600/1200
800/1600
color up
1K/2K



This makes the transition away from 100 value chips a lot smoother and less jarring in my experience. Hope that helps!

 

[Craig D]

If you can afford 600 chip make it easy on yourself

25x160 100x160 500x160 1000x100 5000x20 (or get 1000x120 if you have no need for 5000s)

Starting Stack 16/16/16

I too think 500-1000 1000-2000 1500-3000 is to great

Maybe 500-1000 600-1200 800-1600 1000-2000 1200-2400 and then 1500-3000

I doubt they will go higher than 1200-2400

Have fun

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't even try to respond to these anymore...

Paging doctor @BGinGA , assistance needed in the breakdown room - stat!

 

[links_slayer]

I like 12-12-7 starting stacks for T5,000 and 12-12-3-7 starting stacks for T10,000.

You'd need at least:

120 x T25
120 x T100
70 x T500
70 x T1,000

Add some T500s and T1,000s to fill out barrels/racks (as desired) for color-ups and add a barrel of T5,000s for re-buys. There's no need to get more than 120 T25's and T100s (except for extras for loss/breakage/etc).

This structure has worked well for me:

25 / 25 (i've only recently started using this as level 1 for T5,000 tourneys)
25 / 50
50 / 100
75 / 150
100 / 200
150 / 300
200 / 400
300 / 600
400 / 800
600 / 1200
800 / 1600
1000 / 2000
1500 / 3000
2000 / 4000
3000 / 6000
4000 / 8000
6000 / 12000
8000 / 16000
10000 / 20000

 

[Poker Zombie]

I've been using the 25/25 for a little over a year now and I like it. It gives the limp-every-hand players an extra level before they start destroying their stacks. Downside (for my set-up) is it delays the 1st break by 1 level due to color-up reasons. This gets a few players a bit anxious with "when do we get a break" questions and in-chair pee-pee dances, but nothing broken (or stained) so far.

 

[BGinGA]

You can easily cover 10 players with T10K stacks with just 400 chips, but it sounds as if you guys like lots of chips in your starting stacks.

For a 10-player T10000 tourney set using 600 chips to maximum value, I'd do something like this:

for huge 10K starting stacks:
20 x T25
20 x T100
5 x T500
5 x T1000
------------
50 chips = T10000 (also an even 1/2-rack, or one rack per two players)

you will need this chip set:
200 x T25
200 x T100
50 x T500
75 x T1000 (includes 25x chips to color-up T25 and T100 chips)
------------
525 chips

Rounding up those numbers to allow for re-buys and larger starting stacks (up to T30K) results in:
200 x T25
200 x T100
50 x T500
100 x T1000
50 x T5000
------------
600 chips, with around 125-130 total chips in play at tournament end (just about perfect, optimum range is 100-160).

Overkill for sure, but whatever floats yer boat. Fwiw, I configure my 10-player 10K sets like this (12/12/5/6 stacks):
120 x T25
120 x T100
40 x T500
80 x T1000
20 x T5000
------------
400 chips

and typically double those numbers for two-table/20-player sets.


re: Blind structure

The recommendations above by Anthony and links_slayer are both good advice, with or without the 25/25 level. Personally, I'd go with this 200BB structure:

rd sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
remove T25 chips
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 600 1200
L11 800 1600
remove T100 chips
L12 1000 2000
L13 1500 3000
L14 2000 4000
L15 3000 6000 ***
L16 4000 8000
L17 5000 10000

The average blind increase is 41%, ranging from 25%-50%. Avoid 100% increases whenever you can.

With 10 players and 15-minute levels, the event will typically end no later than L15 (4 hours including breaks). Using 20-minute levels pushes it out to about 5 hours plus breaks.

 

[Virtus]

Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it. Will definitely take your blind recommendations into account, although we do 25-30 minute levels and have never made it past 500/1000.

After looking at all of your scenarios and advice I think I'm going with the following breakdown:

160 x T25
200 x T100
120 x T500
100 x T1000
20 x T5000
-------------------
600 chips

Will probably do starting stacks of 16/16/6/5 or 12/12/7/5 depending on how many buyins and rebuys we will need.

Now I just need my samples to hurry up and get here so I can decide on which chips I want, the Milanos and Majestics should be here today! Hopefully the ceramics won't be far behind.

Thanks again for the help, keep the advice coming if anyone has anything else to add.

 

[BGinGA]

...this will allow 10 starting stacks with enough leftover for all color ups: 25s to 100s, 100s to 500s, 500s to 1000s.

Noteworthy to mention that coloring up using chips of the next higher denomination (T25 chips with T100, T100's with T500s, etc.) is a very inefficient practice, as you are adding chips that will just need to be removed in short order, instead of replacing them with chips that will actually be needed in play later in the event. There is never a need to have more T100 chips than T25 chips in a set.

In addition, sets that contain more T500 chips than T1000 chips are typically not as flexible for meeting future expansion requirements, and can also make the latter stages of a tournament somewhat unwieldy. T500 chips are not as valuable as T1000 chips, because they become obsolete and unnecessary quicker due to the 2x jump to the next denomination.

In both instances, the monies spent on unnecessary chips is usually better directed towards obtaining additional (and more valuable) higher denominations -- T1000 and T5000 chips, in your case.

 

[Virtus]

Noteworthy to mention that coloring up using chips of the next higher denomination (T25 chips with T100, T100's with T500s, etc.) is a very inefficient practice, as you are adding chips that will just need to be removed in short order, instead of replacing them with chips that will actually be needed in play later in the event. There is never a need to have more T100 chips than T25 chips in a set.

In addition, sets that contain more T500 chips than T1000 chips are typically not as flexible for meeting future expansion requirements, and can also make the latter stages of a tournament somewhat unwieldy. T500 chips are not as valuable as T1000 chips, because they become obsolete and unnecessary quicker due to the 2x jump to the next denomination.

In both instances, the monies spent on unnecessary chips is usually better directed towards obtaining additional (and more valuable) higher denominations -- T1000 and T5000 chips, in your case.

Interesting. My line of thinking was actually the exact opposite of this.

So for 10k starting stacks of 16/16/6/5 or 12/12/7/5 would you recommend something more along the lines of:

160 x T25
160 x T100
120 x T500
140 x T1000
20 x T5000
-------------------
600 chips

With this breakdown if you have most of the T100s in play how do you go about coloring up the T25s when players don't have enough to trade for a T500 or T1000?

Also, on a separate but related note how do you handle coloring up when players are short of the next denomination chip (have 1-3 T25s left when coloring up to T100s or have 1-4 T100s left when moving to T500s)?

Thanks again.

 

[BGinGA]

Interesting. My line of thinking was actually the exact opposite of this.

So for 10k starting stacks of 16/16/6/5 or 12/12/7/5

First, let's look at the differences of 16/16/6/5 stacks vs 16/16/4/6 stacks for 10 players:

16/16/6/5 stacks requires:
160 x T25
160 x T100
60 x T500
70 x T1000 (includes 20x for color-ups)
---------------
450 chips, 130 of which will be in play at tournament end (60 x T500 and 70 x T1000)

16/16/4/6 stacks requires:
160 x T25
160 x T100
40 x T500
80 x T1000 (includes 20x for color-ups)
---------------
440 chips, 120 of which will be in play at tournament end (40 x T500 and 80 x T1000)

The blinds (and bets) in the latter stages of the tournament will typically be in increments of T1000, so having more T1000 (and optionally T5000) chips is much better than an excessive amount of T500s. The 16/16/4/6 structure plays into this scenario better, and requires fewer total chips to implement.


Also compare 12/12/7/5 vs 12/12/5/6 stacks for 10 players:

12/12/7/5 stacks requires:
120 x T25
120 x T100
70 x T500
65 x T1000 (includes 15x for color-ups)
---------------
375 chips, 135 of which will be in play at tournament end (70 x T500 and 65 x T1000)

12/12/5/6 stacks requires:
120 x T25
120 x T100
50 x T500
75 x T1000 (includes 15x for color-ups)
---------------
365 chips, 125 of which will be in play at tournament end (50 x T500 and 75 x T1000)

and also compare the 12/12/3/7 stacks preferred by links_slayer:
120 x T25
120 x T100
30 x T500
85 x T1000 (includes 15x for color-ups)
---------------
355 chips, 115 of which will be in play at tournament end (30 x T500 and 85 x T1000)

Although 12/12/3/7 is probably best for creating an optimum mix in the latter levels, I don't believe that 30x T500 chips is a sufficient number for the middle levels in a single-table tournament, as it requires too much change-making because the chips are spread too thin. With 12/12/7/5, the end-tournament mix is way too heavy with T500s, slowing down the action as more chips are needed to make individual bets. 12/12/5/6 best meets the overall demands of a single-table T10000 event.


For the reasons stated above, I recommend using 16/16/4/6 and/or 12/12/5/6 starting stacks for a 10-player set, creating these minimum totals to accomplish both options:
160 x T25
160 x T100
50 x T500
80 x T1000
---------------
450 chips

and bumping those numbers to accommodate re-buys and larger stacks:
160 x T25
160 x T100
60 x T500
100 x T1000
20 x T5000
---------------
500 chips

If you insist on 600 chips, increase the numbers as follows, which also supports the occasional 2-table event (8/8/4/7 stacks):
160 x T25
160 x T100
100 x T500
140 x T1000
40 x T5000
------------
600 chips

With this breakdown if you have most of the T100s in play how do you go about coloring up the T25s when players don't have enough to trade for a T500 or T1000?
Also, on a separate but related note how do you handle coloring up when players are short of the next denomination chip (have 1-3 T25s left when coloring up to T100s or have 1-4 T100s left when moving to T500s)?

Here is how to use higher denomination chips to color-up lower denominations (T1000 to replace the T25 and T100 chips, for example):

With 10 players and 12/12/5/6 stacks, you have 120x T25s in play (totaling T3000) -- which requires 3x T1000 chips to replace. Take the three T1000 chips and exchange them with the biggest stack for 3x T500 and 15x T100 chips, and use those chips to color-up the individual players. Works perfectly if using the race-off method, and may require an additional T1000 chip if using the round-up method.

Alternately, you can have all players at the table sell their T25 chips (in T100 increments) to the biggest stack, and simply color-up most of the T25s in one fell swoop with the big stack. Exchange an additional T1000 chip for 10x T100s from the big stack to cover coloring-up any remaining oddball T25s that remain on the table.

The same process is used when removing the T100 chips. Sounds complicated, but it really isn't in practice.

 

[Anthony Martino]

No math in this serious thread!

 

[Poker Zombie]

You had me at:

16/16/4/6 stacks requires:
160 x T25
160 x T100
40 x T500
80 x T1000 (includes 20x for color-ups)
---------------
440 chips, 120 of which will be in play at tournament end (40 x T500 and 80 x T1000)

But I would run it up to:
200 x T25
200 x T100
80 x T500
100 x T1000
20 x T5000

This gives you even more room for expansion or the option for a deep-stack event. It also gives breathing room if a chip goes awol or if a chip chips/breaks. It also gives nice even that fit into a 600 pc birdcage.

 

[Craig D]

Be sure to get 4-5 spares of each demonination

 

[Virtus]

Thanks again for all of the advice. I believe I am going with the following breakdown. I increased the number to 700 to account for the fact that most of the chips I'm considering are only sold in multiples of 25. This will also give me plenty of room for expansion and give a buffer in case any chips go missing or are broken. Any final thoughts?

200 x 25
200 x 100
125 x 500
125 x 1000
50 x 50
------------------
700 chips

Now I just need my samples to arrive so I can decide which chips it's going to be: Veneratis, Milanos, Majestics, or Pharaohs.

 

[JTBass]

The only thing I would add is to get 25x$5 chips to use as bounties if you ever run a bounty tournament,

 

[AK Chip]

Noteworthy to mention that coloring up using chips of the next higher denomination (T25 chips with T100, T100's with T500s, etc.) is a very inefficient practice, as you are adding chips that will just need to be removed in short order, instead of replacing them with chips that will actually be needed in play later in the event. There is never a need to have more T100 chips than T25 chips in a set.

In addition, sets that contain more T500 chips than T1000 chips are typically not as flexible for meeting future expansion requirements, and can also make the latter stages of a tournament somewhat unwieldy. T500 chips are not as valuable as T1000 chips, because they become obsolete and unnecessary quicker due to the 2x jump to the next denomination.

In both instances, the monies spent on unnecessary chips is usually better directed towards obtaining additional (and more valuable) higher denominations -- T1000 and T5000 chips, in your case.

You have totally changed the way I look at tourney sets and the way to color up. Tried it for the first time Saturday worked fine. Took my crew a bit to conform to the buying of chips with the higher denoms. Also after the fact I realized I need to get the value of the chips getting removed before I start buying chips from players.

As always thanks for the advice on this!!