Timeline of Poker Chip Materials... a work in progress (2 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

You may be right. OTOH there is so much new technology and material being invented nowadays. I keep expecting someone to find some ingenious use of C&C or 3D printing to create a whole new market. The barriers to manufacture/fabrication were arguably much higher 120 years ago, yet tons of small companies took their shot...

 

[GianThaMan]

You may be right. OTOH there is so much new technology and material being invented nowadays. I keep expecting someone to find some ingenious use of C&C or 3D printing to create a whole new market. The barriers to manufacture/fabrication were arguably much higher 120 years ago, yet tons of small companies took their shot...

Well CNC is already being used to make poker chips; in the lathing process for Paulsons. CNC just means Computerized Numerical Control, so it can refer to a bunch of things. There was a whole thread about 3D-printed poker chips, and the consensus is that they would be crappy. I think we could end up with clay 3D printing if we tried, but there isn't any demand for it, and it's probably a bad idea anyway. That brings me to one of the other main reasons that no companies are making new stuff, there just isn't any demand for it. Gambling and poker are moving online, and people don't need card games to have fun anymore. As much as we may love'em, card games aren't as important as they were a century ago. With so many other forms of entertainment, card games are slowly dying out and being replaced by video games, or at least online versions of those card games. With no live card games, there will no longer be a need for chips. They'll exist, but only in a very limited form, made by a very small amount of companies.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Wow, how did you get an actual metal mold?

By wanting them more than anyone else did at the Robert Eisenstadt estate auction.

Robert had a few mold cups that he had obtained from Atlantic Standard Molding among the many items in his collection. And now I have them in mine.

 

[GianThaMan]

By wanting them more than anyone else did at the Robert Eisenstadt estate auction.

Robert had a few mold cups that he had obtained from Atlantic Standard Molding among the many items in his collection. And now I have them in mine.

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[CrazyEddie]

You have probably already seen this if you have the 2nd Edition of Seymour's book, but he dates the inlaid square edge clay chips as showing up in catalogs beginning in the 1890s. They were paranoids made by the USPC Co.

Something interesting I just noticed looking at that advertisement. It touts "... solid colors that extend through the entire chip". At first, that seems like an odd thing to boast about - that's true of all the chips we normally think about from that period (or ever after, for that matter). They're molded from one sort of plastic or another, and the plastic is dyed throughout when it's manufactured, well before it gets put in a mold.

But then I realized: ivory chips are dyed on the surface.

I only know this because of the ivory chips I got from the Eisenstadt estate and had a chance to see up close. This isn't one of them, but here's an example I found online:

Looking at my own chips, I discovered that a chip like this was made by first cutting the ivory stock into blank chips (probably by lathing it into a cylinder and then slicing it into discs), then dyeing the chips. The dye did not penetrate the surface very far; you can see where this chip was worn somewhat on the lower edge and consequently became lighter. Once the chip was uniformly colored, the center area was then milled, creating a very slight recess which exposed the bare uncolored ivory. Then the floral design was etched (by hand!) into the recess.

If you look closely at the picture (you might need to magnify it) you can see the circular mill marks in the recess. They're different from and in addition to the natural rings of the ivory which circle around the nerve hole, which is off-center. The mill marks are perfectly concentric.

A lot of the ivory chips I've seen in pictures aren't dyed at all... but many of them are, and of those that are dyed, they seem to be of a similar construction - a colored outer ring and a bare ivory center. I'll bet in all of them the center is a shallow milled recess. That's true in all of mine, and I have at least three examples from unrelated sets of chips.

The point being - if clay composition chips were being sold as substitutes for ivory chips, the chipmakers might have wanted to point out that they're colored all the way through to distinguish them from ivories and make them seem better.

 

[CrazyEddie]

With no live card games, there will no longer be a need for chips. They'll exist, but only in a very limited form, made by a very small amount of companies.

you is giving me a sadness


About innovation, though: we may not be seeing dramatic breakthroughs, and perhaps there aren't many more to be had, but we are reaping the benefits of a general improvement in technology and infrastructure development. We have more types of chips available to us than ever before. A huge selection of designs, lower prices, higher quality, broader distribution, etc. Companies like Apache and Sidepot can come up with design ideas, test the market waters, get great chips produced with modest investments, and ensure they reach an audience and turn a profit.

None of that's new, exactly, but it's more efficient and thus more likely to happen and succeed than ever before.

Sometimes progress isn't about the big innovations. Sometimes it's just the piling up of lots of little improvements, making good things better.

 

[Taghkanic]

Almost every field reaches a point where it feels like it has reached a final plateau... Then someone comes up with something new that no one expected. Just wondering how long we’ll have to wait.

 

[Taghkanic]

One of the most interesting stories I heard about poker “currency” was an interview by the Thinking Poker guys of Jamal Hanson about his experience playing poker in prison. Hanson was a ceramics instructor in the prison, and so he started to fire his own chips for the prison game.

https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2018/01/episode-243-jamal-hanson/

I’m adding “homemade & custom” to the timeline (for the full history of poker currency), since I assume that there have always been occasions for players to come up with creative solutions in the absence of chips/cheques/tokens/counters.

 

[Taghkanic]

I’ve updated the timeline as follows (also replaced the version in the OP) to reflect the comments and further research, especially in Seymour.

This is still a big work in progress with many potential errors and additions to make. The lack of real documentation in many areas requires some guesswork. The start and end dates are approximate for virtually every type of poker currency, becoming less definite the farther back in time one goes...

Hoping others will spot adjustments and additions to keep this project going.

 

[PlaidDragon]

there just isn't any demand for it. Gambling and poker are moving online, and people don't need card games to have fun anymore..........card games are slowly dying out and being replaced by video games, or at least online versions of those card games. With no live card games, there will no longer be a need for chips.

The day I can't physically pick up a stack of chips and toss them into the center is the day I stop playing poker for ever.

I don't totally disagree with your assessment, but right now there's enough people like me where chips will still be in demand for live games.

 

[Taghkanic]

While I agree that online games have gained a lot steam, especially with the pandemic, and will continue to do so as more states legalize it... There are still tons of players who have never played online, or only do so sporadically. Like @PlaidDragon , I believe there will pretty much always be an interest in live poker, whether in casinos or private/club/home games.

The game is obviously very social, and an excuse for people to get out of the house/get together. Even using parallel Zoom or other chat video alongside home game poker software, it’s just not the same.... whether you’re playing strictly for entertainment and camaraderie, or using live tells as a significant part of your competitive game.

There is also a real pleasure to the materials and atmosphere of a good live game that online can’t provide. Sure, it is probably more comfortable overall sitting on my own couch, drinking my own booze, with my own music playing... But the excitement levels just can’t compete with live games, IMHO, plus there’s the added fun and unpredictability of a live social setting.

No doubt in 20-30 years there will be plenty of young people who think that playing live is old-fashioned and ridiculous. I guess there already are, especially among pros who want to get in as much volume as possible. But I don’t see it dying out.

 

[Taghkanic]

One thing, however, which is happening in my area due to the pandemic is that all three of the casinos nearest to me (60-90 minutes drive) closed their poker rooms during the pandemic. Though they have reopened for slots and most table games, they have not reopened for poker. Only one has given any indication that they plan to reopen their poker room; the other two have said nothing and do not reply to inquiries. A guy I know who was a floor manager at the casino closest to me predicted 6 months ago that they will never reopen the poker room, and (for now at least) they have converted it into some sort of “seniors lounge” with slot machines and a few table games for people 55+ years old.

My understanding is that poker rooms are the least profitable part of a casino, something that operators provide more to keep up appearances and get people in the door (with the hope that they blow any winnings elsewhere in the casino). So the pandemic may have supplied them with the excuse they wanted to repurpose this space for more profitable gaming.

If none of these three casinos near me do reopen for poker, the demand for games will not change. If that happens, I would expect a resurgence of live home games, private clubs, underground and social hall games, which had started to dwindle when these three casinos opened in the past 5-10 years. Those people are going to need chips; unfortunately most of them will go for dice and slugged chips. But with hope some of them will be convinced to do better.

 

[KK_David]

For a writing project, I went hunting around the interwebs for a simple timeline of what materials were used for poker chips across the roughly two-century history of the game. I was surprised not to find such a timeline (though it is quite possible my google skillz failed me).

Below is my first *totally provisional, off-the-cuff, totally spitballed attempt* at a timeline. I am throwing this out there not as anything even remotely authoritative, but as a conversation starter. I may be completely off on some/all items, and probably I have forgotten some type of chip which should be mentioned. Note that I focused only on checks/tokens/other placeholders for currency used in poker games.

I’m not trying to go back farther in to the history of gambling pre-poker. I am really not sure when some of the early materials (various forms of bone and wood) started to disappear, but I suspect it was by 1930 or so, as modern materials started to take over the markets. I also haven't included various novelty/bespoke materials. (For example, if you go on Etsy or other sites you can find people making chips out of various metals and other impractical materials.)

Anyway, here is the starter chart I made in a spreadsheet program:

View attachment 656085

Here is an updated (v2) based on the comments so far in this thread. Please see the caveats later in the discussion... This is still very provisional and needs editing/suggestions/corrections.

View attachment 659548

This is fascinating. Long stretch with no innovation after Celluloid, Bakelite etc introduced circa 1900...

 

[Taghkanic]

Revisiting this thread… I saw some vintage chips on eBay which were said to be made of “Harvite.” Not having seen that term before, I tried to research it. Came up with this from a guitar site:

 

[CrazyEddie]

"fine clay impregnated phenolic resin" - Ah, Bakelite! We meet again! The plastic of a thousand names.

I've seen Harvite mentioned on eBay as well, and I too ended up looking at guitar forums when I tried to figure out what it was. That was a while ago so I don't recall what I learned, but the above explanation seems plausible.

A lot of eBay sellers have no idea about materials or material names and are just guessing or just repeating what they were told. I wouldn't put much store in their guesses unless there's a manufacturer's or distributor's packaging to go along with the chips that has the name of the material printed on it.

 

[Taghkanic]

This seller actually had an original box with the chips, which specified Harvite, so this might be a rare exception where the seller is correct...

Anyway, is it exactly the same as Bakelite, just a competitor’s different brand name? Or is there some (shall we say) fine distinction?

 

[CrazyEddie]

Phenolic resin is the generic name for the polymer that makes up Bakelite. Any specific material will be a combination of resin and various additives and fillers. The Bakelite brand name was applied to a wide range of such materials, so even Bakelite isn't exactly the same as Bakelite. So Harvite won't necessarily be exactly the same as any particular Bakelite formulation, but it will be essentially the same as all of them.

 

[Taghkanic]

I found a couple of papers I hadn't seen before about the history of gaming tokens/casino chips while searching around...

 

[Taghkanic]

Also this, which appears to be another version of one of the magazine articles above:

 

[CrazyEddie]

That last one I've seen hosted on "yumpu" before: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/3648279/game-counters-and-casino-chips-roulette-research

I hadn't seen the other source for the PDF directly: http://www.rouletteresearch.uk/Publications/PDF_Documents/CasinoChips(part1).pdf

This is where I found the picture of a typical (presumably?) production process that I posted in the TRK Formula thread: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/trk-chip-dye-formula-revealed.63453/#post-1256755

I'm slightly reluctant to endorse the George Melas "Game Counters and Casino Chips" paper. It strikes me as having been pulled together from a variety of Internet sources, often verbatim. Now, I mean, that's fine; that's about all that I can do myself anyway, and I'm glad to see this quantity of information in a single place. I just wish that the information itself was properly sourced and cited, or that there was more scholarship or analysis applied to the information unearthed.

Anyway, great find! Thanks for sharing.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Then there's this: http://www.rouletteresearch.uk/CasChips.aspx

I wonder what's in the 120-page document that's not in the 20-page one. It says "available for purchase" but I didn't see any way to actually purchase it. Might have to try to contact the author / site admin by email and see if anyone answers. The site was updated in 2020 so I guess it's not completely dead...

 

[Taghkanic]

Then there's this: http://www.rouletteresearch.uk/CasChips.aspx

View attachment 781976

I wonder what's in the 120-page document that's not in the 20-page one. It says "available for purchase" but I didn't see any way to actually purchase it. Might have to try to contact the author / site admin by email and see if anyone answers. The site was updated in 2020 so I guess it's not completely dead...

I sent an email inquiring about the 120-page paper a few days ago. No reply.