Cash Game Table talk once hands are exposed (1 Viewer)

[CrazyEddie]

Because there is no showdown yet, thus you are flirting with one player to a hand. How would you feel if you showed down your cards and the guy was about to muck and the guy next to him said "just turn your cards over", and it cost you to lose the pot?

It is each player's responsibility to play their hand until showdown. Once hands are shown down, then it is everyone's responsibility to make sure correct winning hand gets the pot.

The showdown begins as soon as action on the river is completed. My assumption has been that the OP's scenario took place during the showdown (although I pointed out that his description is somewhat vague and could be read ambiguously).

How would you feel if you showed down your cards and the guy was about to muck and the guy next to him said "just turn your cards over", and it cost you to lose the pot?

Saying "You should show your hand" is very different from "The hand he just tabled is Queen high". The first is instruction on how to play (arguably, although that's a deeper and more fundamental question worth getting into another time), the second is stating a fact about the current state of the game, comparable to saying who the action is on or what the current bet is. Stating these sorts of facts doesn't make up a OPTAH violation.

 

[xdan]

@xdan Did the guy with AJ actually show those, or just claimed to have them afterwards? Still trying to wrap my head around what he could have possible been thinking when he mucked.

He never showed. He called the final bet so I believe him when he said he had AJ
He thought the other guy had a straight.

 

[grantc54]

He never showed. He called the final bet so I believe him when he said he had AJ
He thought the other guy had a straight.

"Q high" would suggest a straight since what he actually had was "A high". Unnecessary confusion.

 

[JustinInMN]

Every rule set I have read says once a hand is tabled anyone can read it. So based on that the OP is never in the wrong and the floorperson biffed it absent some exception in this particular room. Now if the OP has said that about his hand prior to tabling it, that's an entirely different story and does run afoul of one player per hand.

 

[upNdown]

That's into splitting hairs territory. Some houses are very particular about the cards having to be flat on the table; in general it's probably a good place for the floor to make a ruling "in the best interest of the game" - although I'm not sure this situation would ever affect the outcome of the hand, but rather a matter of etiquette where the player would or would not have committed an infraction and the floor would or would not be inclined to assess a penalty. As a practical matter, floor would either say "Sir, please wait to read the hands until all have been placed flat on the table" and then it would never come up again, or floor would say "give me a break, it's fine, please stop bothering me over inconsequential matters" and then it would never come up again.

... or so I suspect. I'm not a casino employee. If it were my house I'd probably go with the latter.

I’m not sure it’s splitting hairs. There are times where I’ve tabled a loser just to make sure, and there are times I’ve waved cards at people to show them off in frustration. Tabling is a deliberate, intentional act. I suppose it can be done unintentionally as well, but in both cases, they end up on the table, face up.
We all know how to table cards. And if he didn’t, I’d consider however much was in that pot to be a cheap lesson.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I’m not sure it’s splitting hairs. There are times where I’ve tabled a loser just to make sure, and there are times I’ve waved cards at people to show them off in frustration. Tabling is a deliberate, intentional act. I suppose it can be done unintentionally as well, but in both cases, they end up on the table, face up.
We all know how to table cards. And if he didn’t, I’d consider however much was in that pot to be a cheap lesson.

This is tangential, I believe, to the OP's post... BUT... I've been reading up on this topic lately and so I Have Opinions Here.

Point taken about the deliberate nature of tabling.

That said... I have Some Concerns around the idea that if Player X waves their cards around and generally exposes them such that numerous players at the table can see them - as opposed to showing them privately to another person, which has its own issues, of course - that all the players are then obligated to Refuse To Observe What They Are And Refrain From Commenting On Their Existence And Its Obvious Implications. You saw he has the flush, and I saw he has the flush, and I know you know he has the flush, and you know I know he has the flush, and we all know that we all know that he has the flush, because we all saw that we all saw that he has the flush, but we're not allowed to mention it?

In my view, the relevant act at showdown is showing one's cards, all of them, such that everyone can see them and thus everyone knows what your hand is and can determine whether or not it is a winner and can do so verifiably because everyone has seen them. Tabling those cards is a matter of etiquette, a point of play intended to ensure the smooth proceeding of the game, but not something which affects the outcome (other than by reducing the potential for mistakes to occur). Various rulesets may choose to codify certain aspects of etiquette and promote them to rules, such that failure to follow proper protocol results in outcome-changing decisions such as disqualifying an otherwise winning hand, and accordingly some house rules may be very particular about having cards flat on the table. IMHO such a rule is far more strict than necessary, and I suspect would almost never be enforced in practice.

 

[CrazyEddie]

We all know how to table cards. And if he didn’t, I’d consider however much was in that pot to be a cheap lesson.

Also note that my post you're replying to was itself in response to a post that was a hypothetical unrelated to the OP or to any actual situation that occurred in a game. So there was no pot in contention here, just a hypothetical about a third party's possible breach of etiquette in reading a hand that had been exposed during showdown but not yet tabled, a thing which nobody had actually done or attempted.

 

[upNdown]

This is tangential, I believe, to the OP's post... BUT... I've been reading up on this topic lately and so I Have Opinions Here.

Point taken about the deliberate nature of tabling.

That said... I have Some Concerns around the idea that if Player X waves their cards around and generally exposes them such that numerous players at the table can see them - as opposed to showing them privately to another person, which has its own issues, of course - that all the players are then obligated to Refuse To Observe What They Are And Refrain From Commenting On Their Existence And Its Obvious Implications. You saw he has the flush, and I saw he has the flush, and I know you know he has the flush, and you know I know he has the flush, and we all know that we all know that he has the flush, because we all saw that we all saw that he has the flush, but we're not allowed to mention it?

In my view, the relevant act at showdown is showing one's cards, all of them, such that everyone can see them and thus everyone knows what your hand is and can determine whether or not it is a winner and can do so verifiably because everyone has seen them. Tabling those cards is a matter of etiquette, a point of play intended to ensure the smooth proceeding of the game, but not something which affects the outcome (other than by reducing the potential for mistakes to occur). Various rulesets may choose to codify certain aspects of etiquette and promote them to rules, such that failure to follow proper protocol results in outcome-changing decisions such as disqualifying an otherwise winning hand, and accordingly some house rules may be very particular about having cards flat on the table. IMHO such a rule is far more strict than necessary, and I suspect would almost never be enforced in practice.

I hear you, but in this case, the example is a perfect reason to have the rule. The act of putting the cards on the table or choosing to throw them in the muck is the very last decision a player can make, and it signifies the end of the hand.
And the end of the hand is significant, because before the hand is over, nobody is allowed to speak, but once the hand is over, everybody is obligated to speak. How are people going to know when to speak and when to keep their mouths shut if there’s some ambiguous act (more than showing one neighbor but less than physically tabling) that counts as showing?

I’m on your bandwagon of eliminating stupid technicalities, especially from home games. But I think you need that clear line for this issue.

 

[AWenger]

That said... I have Some Concerns around the idea that if Player X waves their cards around and generally exposes them such that numerous players at the table can see them - as opposed to showing them privately to another person, which has its own issues, of course - that all the players are then obligated to Refuse To Observe What They Are And Refrain From Commenting On Their Existence And Its Obvious Implications. You saw he has the flush, and I saw he has the flush, and I know you know he has the flush, and you know I know he has the flush, and we all know that we all know that he has the flush, because we all saw that we all saw that he has the flush, but we're not allowed to mention it?

In a case where it's a home game where everyone is friends and doesn't care about things like that, and/or the player is new, then I might mention it, or maybe just tell the player "just table your hand".

But on the other hand, if it's also group of friends and/or a new player where the player has already been told to table their hand several times already, and they just don't table their hand, (unless they think they have the winner), and they're the type of player that just holds the cards (either face down on the table) or up in front of their face and looks back at the board many times without tabling their hand, and can hold up the game in doing so, I won't say anything anymore. They've got their one warning, if they want to keep their hole cards private, and muck their cards face down, and not table their hand face up, that's on them.

 

[DontKnowWhen]

Every rule set I have read says once a hand is tabled anyone can read it. So based on that the OP is never in the wrong and the floorperson biffed it absent some exception in this particular room. Now if the OP has said that about his hand prior to tabling it, that's an entirely different story and does run afoul of one player per hand.

^^^^^ This