Cash Game Table talk once hands are exposed (1 Viewer)

[xdan]

So playing 2/5 at crown casino.

I sit down and within a couple of hands, this scenario popped up.

On river, guy bets $200 into $300
Gets called.

Board is xxA9T

Guy shows QJ for a busted draw and bluff.

He flips his card face up and I said something like ‘queen high’

The other guy mucked AJ. He misread the situation

Anyways, bettor said I have to keep my mouth shut as the only 2 players who can talk are the bettor and caller.

I told him to fuck off and stipulated the cards are up, I was dealt in, so deal with it.

Floor gets called and said I have to keep quiet.
I said ‘etiquette or rule?’
He wouldn’t answer.
I asked him many times and said ‘rule’

What’s the go?

 

[davislane]

your lucky Will Smith didnt slap you!

shut your mouth until the pot has been awarded. up to the players in the pot and the dealer to sort it out.

 

[Nanook]

Well, it's not like this is the 1st or last time something like this has or will happen, but......

Think about how you would feel if you were about to be awarded a pot and someone else at the table chimes in and the pot gets pushed in another direction.

If it is a rule, it isn't enforceable. It is for sure poor etiquette

 

[surfik]

In Europe according to EPT rules once the hand is exposed you can comment all you want....

 

[davislane]

your lucky Will Smith didnt slap you!

shut your mouth until the pot has been awarded. up to the players in the pot and the dealer to sort it out.

their own rules say you can speak. id still slap you just the same.

 

[BarrieJ3]

So playing 2/5 at crown casino.

I sit down and within a couple of hands, this scenario popped up.

On river, guy bets $200 into $300
Gets called.

Board is xxA9T

Guy shows QJ for a busted draw and bluff.

He flips his card face up and I said something like ‘queen high’

The other guy mucked AJ. He misread the situation

Anyways, bettor said I have to keep my mouth shut as the only 2 players who can talk are the bettor and caller.

I told him to fuck off and stipulated the cards are up, I was dealt in, so deal with it.

Floor gets called and said I have to keep quiet.
I said ‘etiquette or rule?’
He wouldn’t answer.
I asked him many times and said ‘rule’

What’s the go?

There's much that depends here. I have questions over what actions took place when you say "The other guy mucked AJ. He misread the situation".

Lets just say that AJ just flipped his cards and thought he lost, and didn't actually throw his cards into the muck. First, the dealer should be announcing him the winning hand. Second, if any one else notices the pot being awarded incorrectly they should absolutely say something?

Well, it's not like this is the 1st or last time something like this has or will happen, but......

Think about how you would feel if you were about to be awarded a pot and someone else at the table chimes in and the pot gets pushed in another direction.

If it is a rule, it isn't enforceable. It is for sure poor etiquette

If I was at a table about to be incorrectly awarded a pot, and someone else at the table chimes in and the pot gets pushed in another direction, I would probably say good looking out and either knuckle that person up or grab them a drink.

At both home and casino game I'd be more than fine with it? And if I saw a pot going somewhere incorrectly, I would absolutely say something. I would state it as a question and not a statement however.

I have almost no card room experience, but maybe played 15ish hours last trip to Vegas? In that 15 hours, I saw this happen at minimum 10 times and it was never an issue.

 

[xdan]

Thanks for Dave pointing out that I was right.

 

[ArielVer18]

How did you know the other guy had AJ? Did he table it? If he simply threw his hand away, that’s his own fault for not protecting his hand. Once cards are tabled, cards speak.

 

[Machine]

Table talk, is a term for talking about a particular action or information that can have an impact on others action during the hand. Once the cards are tabled its over and matters not what is said.

I seen people that I care about muck the winning hand in a 2/5 game, it's very hard not to say something , and I've had to call out winning hands, that the dealer missed, against family in the same game.

If it's not tabled you can't say anything, and often it just sucks more if a guy/gal over looks their hand.

 

[ekricket]

View attachment 943759
their own rules say you can speak. id still slap you just the same.

I’d announce “full house” before I showed any hands at showdown from then on.

“Sorry, I misread my ace high as a full house”.

 

[davislane]

I’d announce “full house” before I showed any hands at showdown from then on.

“Sorry, I misread my ace high as a full house”.

@xdan let me know what the Managers say about that.

 

[ekricket]

@xdan let me know what the Managers say about that.

But what about the players? Evidently they can’t say anything about it.

 

[Nanook]

........Once cards are tabled, cards speak.

I was just going by what the OP stated. I should have gone on to say this.

......If it's not tabled you can't say anything, and often it just sucks more if a guy/gal over looks their hand.

Tabled or not makes all the difference here

 

[Taghkanic]

@xdan let me know what the Managers say about that.

Best practice is to announce a nutted hand that isn’t possible, so that anyone paying even the slightest attention knows you’re joking

 

[CrazyEddie]

He flips his card face up and I said something like ‘queen high’

Robert's Rules and TDA both state that reading a player's hand that has not been tabled is a violation of etiquette and accordingly may be penalized at management's discretion. Neither one address reading a player's hand that has been tabled. Both affirm that all players - whether in the hand or not - have a responsibility to ensure that all hands tabled at showdown have been read correctly and that the pot has been awarded correctly; reading a tabled hand is perfectly consistent with this responsibility.

Anyways, bettor said I have to keep my mouth shut as the only 2 players who can talk are the bettor and caller.

This is not a rule in either Robert's Rules or TDA.

Floor gets called and said I have to keep quiet.

Whatever Floor says goes, but this wouldn't be the first time Floor got something wrong.

Note: your description was a little vague, but I'm assuming that at the time the first player turned over his cards the action was already complete and the hand was at showdown, and that the other player's only decision was to either show or muck and that he was not facing a decision to e.g. fold or call or bet. If action was still pending, then arguably reading even an exposed hand could be a violation of one-player-to-a-hand, as prior to the showdown it's arguably still the other player's responsibility - and his alone - to determine the value of the exposed cards, and anyone reading those exposed cards for him could be providing undue interference. I say "arguably" because I don't think this case is clearly considered in either RRoP or TDA rules. I think you could say, though, that if the action is still pending then the cards have been exposed but not tabled (since "tabling" cards happens during the showdown, after action is complete) and accordingly reading those not-yet-tabled cards for someone is a breach of etiquette.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I’d announce “full house” before I showed any hands at showdown from then on.

“Sorry, I misread my ace high as a full house”.

Deliberately misreading your hand is against the rules. Accidentally misreading your hand is not against the rules. In neither case does misreading your hand affect who wins the pot, once the hands are correctly sorted out.

 

[navels]

I've always understood that when the cards are up at showdown, all players at the table have a responsibility to ensure the pot is awarded correctly.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

If both hands are tabled, you have every right to say something. until and unless both hands are tabled you should keep quiet.

 

[CrazyEddie]

If both hands are tabled, you have every right to say something. until and unless both hands are tabled you should keep quiet.

If a hand has been tabled, shouldn't every player be able to read it, even if there are still other hands that have not yet been tabled?

 

[ratbastard]

I feel like it is probably good etiquette not to speak if you aren't still involved in the hand, but I don't think it matters that much either way.

What I don't get is the guy with AJ mucking after he hears "queen high." Did he think his opponent had the queen high straight? (Seemingly not, since the opponent missed his queen high straight draw, and if the board was AT9xx, there wasn't a queen high straight available anyway.) Did he think his opponent had AQ, for a pair of aces with a "queen high" kicker? In any case, if he really did hear you say "queen high" and then mucked a pair of aces with AJ, it seems like losing this pot is on him.

Also, if his opponent's cards are face up, then I just don't get why he would muck based on anyone at the table saying anything about the hand or what his opponent's cards were -- they are face up on the table in plain view. If he mucked and then claimed to have AJ I just have to believe he is just trying to save face on a hero call or having misread his own hand or something.

 

[AWenger]

Guy shows QJ for a busted draw and bluff.

He flips his card face up and I said something like ‘queen high’

The other guy mucked AJ. He misread the situation

Here's how I generally approach it -- once BOTH hands are tabled face up at showdown, then I would speak up. But if one player hasn't tabled their hand face up yet, I would keep my mouth shut.

Once BOTH hands are tabled face up at showdown, while it is the dealer's responsibility to award the pot, it is also the players responsibility to point out any errors the dealer might make (this is the "cards speak"). Like if the dealer starts pushing the pot toward the losing hand, I would definitely speak up and tell/ask the dealer & table, 'that guy only had queen high' (right?).

If the winning hand was tabled face up, players should feel obliged to speak up and say what they saw the cards & hands to be, if they feel the dealer is making an error. However, if one player does not table his hand face up, I stay silent.

 

[grebe]

So playing 2/5 at crown casino.

I sit down and within a couple of hands, this scenario popped up.

On river, guy bets $200 into $300
Gets called.

Board is xxA9T

Guy shows QJ for a busted draw and bluff.

He flips his card face up and I said something like ‘queen high’

Keep your mouth shut until both hands are exposed. After that, cards speak and you can input then.

 

[Machine]

I think you could say, though, that if the action is still pending then the cards have been exposed but not tabled (since "tabling" cards happens during the showdown, after action is complete) and accordingly reading those not-yet-tabled cards for someone is a breach of etiquette.

What are your thoughts on... action is complete on the river and one person tables their hand, and the other person exposes their hand in the air face up but has yet to touch the cards to the table?

 

[grebe]

If a hand has been tabled, shouldn't every player be able to read it, even if there are still other hands that have not yet been tabled?

no.

 

[grebe]

What are your thoughts on... action is complete on the river and one person tables their hand, and the other person exposes their hand in the air face up but has yet to touch the cards to the table?

Dont say a Dogdamn word until he tables his hand. Pinch yourself if you have to. If he is too dumb to flip his cards over, that's on him.

 

[CrazyEddie]

What are your thoughts on... action is complete on the river and one person tables their hand, and the other person exposes their hand in the air face up but has yet to touch the cards to the table?

That's into splitting hairs territory. Some houses are very particular about the cards having to be flat on the table; in general it's probably a good place for the floor to make a ruling "in the best interest of the game" - although I'm not sure this situation would ever affect the outcome of the hand, but rather a matter of etiquette where the player would or would not have committed an infraction and the floor would or would not be inclined to assess a penalty. As a practical matter, floor would either say "Sir, please wait to read the hands until all have been placed flat on the table" and then it would never come up again, or floor would say "give me a break, it's fine, please stop bothering me over inconsequential matters" and then it would never come up again.

... or so I suspect. I'm not a casino employee. If it were my house I'd probably go with the latter.

 

[CrazyEddie]

no.

Why not?

Also, note that the house rules of this particular card room disagree with you (although the floor seems to not know their own rules).

 

[Mandos]

@xdan Did the guy with AJ actually show those, or just claimed to have them afterwards? Still trying to wrap my head around what he could have possible been thinking when he mucked.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

If a hand has been tabled, shouldn't every player be able to read it, even if there are still other hands that have not yet been tabled?

Because until both sets of cards have been tabled you're violating the one player to a hand rule. If you're unsure whether or not you win, always table your hand. Once tabled cards play

 

[grebe]

Why not?

Also, note that the house rules of this particular card room disagree with you (although the floor seems to not know their own rules).

Because there is no showdown yet, thus you are flirting with one player to a hand. How would you feel if you showed down your cards and the guy was about to muck and the guy next to him said "just turn your cards over", and it cost you to lose the pot?

It is each player's responsibility to play their hand until showdown. Once hands are shown down, then it is everyone's responsibility to make sure correct winning hand gets the pot.

Until then, talk about religion, politics, or your nasty fetish. Just not the hand in progress.