Super-Ellipse Pre-Build Thread - Getting All The Ducks Lined Up... (2 Viewers)

[LotsOfChips]

So some time ago I read a thread from @Taghkanic where he was discussing how the standard "Stadium" or "Oval" shaped table had pretty poor sight lines (players at certain seats can't easily see players at some other seats), and after playing at a bunch of different tables, I pretty much agree with him.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/table-shapes-a-bit-of-a-rant.22942/

After looking at some simple Ellipse based tables, I found that the ends were a bit too pointed for my taste. So when I decided to build my own table, I wanted to use the "Super-Ellipse" or Lamé Curve shaped design, as mentioned by @Taghkanic in the above noted thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superellipse

This is different than a simple ellipse in that rather than having just a Major (a) and Minor (b) Axis to define the curve, you can adjust and vary the shape of the table by altering the "n" value of the mathematical equation that defines the curve:

x = a * ( cos(t) ) ^ ( 2 / n ) * sign(( cos(t) ))
y = b * ( sin(t) ) ^ ( 2 / n ) * sign(( sin(t) ))

​

The issue that I struggled with was that unlike "Oval" or Ellipse builds, there are no simple woodworking jigs to accurately lay out, draw or cut a super-ellipse curve on a full sheet of plywood.

I asked in a thread on this forum for suggestions on how to draw out and cut the shapes, but didn't really come up with any methods that would provide the accuracy and the flexibility to change shapes that I was looking for.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/how-the-heck-do-you-cut-a-super-ellipse.105025/

Given my level of OCD, I realized that I wouldn't be happy with free-handing things or getting "close enough" and then sanding things to line up afterwards. So I decided that using a CNC machine would be about the only way that I could pull this off. I looked online for home shop CNC machines that could cut full sheets of plywood, and stumbled across the V1 Engineering Lowrider. It uses 3D printed materials for many of the parts, and the designer has posted all of the plans and files online for free. Total cost for all of the hardware (including the 3d filament but not including the table, router and end mills, or my new 3D printer) is around $450 US.

I built the Lowrider version 3, but there is a new and more capable version 4 that has just been released. Here is a link to my build thread on the V1E Forum

https://forum.v1e.com/t/introducing-big-red-lowrider-3/45509

Next up was learning how to use 3D modelling to create the table design. I used AutoDesk Fusion, which has a free license for hobbyists and small business users. There was a bit of a learning curve, but after a bit of trial and error I was able to come up with a design that allows me to quickly alter:

• Table Length ("a")
• Table Width ("b")
• Table Shape ("n")
• Rail Width
• Cup Holder Size (Jumbo, Regular or None)
• # of cupholders (8 or 9 players)
• Location of Cup Holders (In the middle and ends, or staggered away from the ends)

I was also able to model the exact location and size of the rail bolts/tee-nut holes, cup holder holes, kickstand legs and support gussets (which move or change size as the table length is adjusted. I can also adjust things like rail and playing surface foam thickness, plywood thickness, screw and bolt sizes/lengths, and see how those changes affect the table design.

Here's a few examples:

"n" = 2.2 96" x 48" 8 player w/ Jumbo Cup Holders and 6" Rail

Same table, but changing "n" to 2.4 (less pointed on the ends)

Here's a smaller version

n" = 2.2 84" x 44" 8 player w/ Regular Cup Holders and 4.5" Rail

and again the less pointed "n" = 2.4 version:

Here's the 84 x 44 version (N = 2.2) with the cup holders on the ends:

and a 10 player version

A view of the bottom, that shows all of the screw and bolt placement

And lastly a cross section of the table surface and rail

I still have a little bit more modelling to do (adding folding table legs, cup rings, etc.), but the model is close to finished. I am going to start laying out the flat pieces in a couple of weeks in order to generate the "g-code" commands for the CNC. After that, I need to teach myself Adobe Illustrator, so that I can prepare my custom Chanman cloth design. Who knows how long that will take...

 

[Taghkanic]

FWIW, the Gorillia Gaming “Illuminati” tables are super-ellipses. In fact the one I later bought from them looks like an almost exact match, dimensions-wise, for some of the plots I posted a while before they started producing them.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/table-shapes-a-bit-of-a-rant.22942/page-3

I don’t expect royalties, LOL.

Anyway I suggest checking out the Gorilla tables — not to deter you from building yourself, which can be a very satisfying challenge. Just to see how they approached it. One thing I like on their current version is the drop-in felt, which allows for relatively easy swaps if you ever need to replace the surface.

They have a regular version and a dealer version, this is the regular:

https://gorillagaming.net/illuminati-table/

 

[merkong]

And this super Ellipse is still coming out of one standard sheet of plywood… The only difference is the curve…

I have built two ellipses and can’t disagree; with a 6” rail (required for jumbo drink holders) the ends get “pointy.”

Because I’ve long since abandoned my OCD for a general apathy and possess a strong belief that “if it’s covered by cloth or vinyl nobody cares” when I get to starting my super ellipse or “Lame Curve” (I so prefer that nomenclature) I’ll get one “corner drawn to my satisfaction and after cutting that line, simply use the scrap as my template for the three remaining cuts. Any other full sheets that need matching I’ll use the original board as my template.

I’ve been readying for a build and being rereminded that a Lame Curve design can be done this simply I’ve decided to begin preparing.

If I have my cloth and accessories on hand I can build a table in one weekend.

Lookout!

 

[LotsOfChips]

Gorillia Gaming “Illuminati”

Yeah, I had already checked them out, thanks. I'm kinda "meh" about GG to begin with, and considering the whole "patented USB C&D" drama, I'm pretty unimpressed that they stole (er, borrowed) your idea and made it their own.

not to deter you from building yourself, which can be a very satisfying challenge

For so many reasons, I'm going to do this myself, especially now that I have invested in the home built CNC. I suppose if I wanted to buy one pre-built, I would call up Tony at Chanman tables, give him the CAD drawings, and have him work his magic. But I'm pretty sure that I can build it myself for a fraction of the cost (less than 20%) of either a GG or Chanman table, and now that I'm fully retired, it will fill some of my post-retirement days with activity and fulfillment. Hard to put a price on that!

drop-in felt, which allows for relatively easy swaps

I'm building it with Tee Nuts and Machine Screws to hold the rails in place, so a cloth replacement or removal for cleaning should hopefully just entail undoing the machine screws, lifting the rail, and then peeling off the cloth from the foam and laying down a new cloth (along with re-applying spray adhesive and cutting the edges of a new cloth). But I'm hoping that won't be necessary (famous last words..).

 

[merkong]

But I'm hoping that won't be necessary (famous last words..).

Aside from catastrophic situations and personal preference, if maintained you shouldn’t have to replace. I have a thread on the world’s most perfect machine for cleaning cloth and I’d never pull the rail to clean under the recess. It gets swept regularly and is not exposed to wear or skin oils.

Thread 'Table Cloth Cleaning - Product Review'
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/table-cloth-cleaning-product-review.126238/

 

[LotsOfChips]

still coming out of one standard sheet of plywood…

Well two, technically (one for the upper rail, support gussets, etc., and one for the lower rail and playing surface), but yes, same build details as a regular oval/stadium or ellipse, just somewhat better (hopefully) sight lines and overall aesthetics (IMO).

“Lame Curve” (I so prefer that nomenclature)

LOL, I finally figured out how to put that accent above the "e" - it's a Lamé Curve

I’ve long since abandoned my OCD for a general apathy and possess a strong belief that “if it’s covered by cloth or vinyl nobody cares”

Lucky you, my OCD will not be denied! Covering the imperfections with cloth or vinyl won't satisfy it, it still screams at me that it is wrong!

 

[allforcharity]

I don’t expect royalties, LOL.

Royalties? You're lucky they didn't send you a C&D order for some imagined design patent.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I figured out how to do an exploded view of the model (first attempt - a bit rough)

 

[merkong]

And this super Ellipse is still coming out of one standard sheet of plywood… The only difference is the curve…

I have built two ellipses and can’t disagree; with a 6” rail (required for jumbo drink holders) the ends get “pointy.”

Because I’ve long since abandoned my OCD for a general apathy and possess a strong belief that “if it’s covered by cloth or vinyl nobody cares” when I get to starting my super ellipse or “Lame Curve” (I so prefer that nomenclature) I’ll get one “corner drawn to my satisfaction and after cutting that line, simply use the scrap as my template for the three remaining cuts. Any other full sheets that need matching I’ll use the original board as my template.

I’ve been readying for a build and being rereminded that a Lame Curve design can be done this simply I’ve decided to begin preparing.

If I have my cloth and accessories on hand I can build a table in one weekend.

Lookout!

Ok, buckle up forum... Pen to paper. I am in the process of determining how much larger I want to make my version of a Lame Curve (inspired by necessity and the Original Poster) and more importantly, how much larger I can make this new table based on my playing area.

The impetus behind the Lame Curve for Godfather Club, is improved sightlines and comfort. Big Red can handle 10 players with ease but recently I've been playing 11 on occasion. I'll table the extra seat for a few reasons. In the event of a late cancel (it happens as we all know and depending on the circumstances comes with varied retribution), I like to table 11 for STT's, and if a player gets nitty or tilty, or flat out broke, and they leave we're not as affected as we try to keep numbers healthy at midnight which helps us stay strong into the 1 o'clock hour, and likely keeps us able to call 5 or 6 more orbits as 2 AM approaches.

Playing area measurements pending, I'll begin designing the new "plywood." It will come of two sheets cut and reattached to create a larger piece. It will wind up being double thick and add weight but that equals stability. My table is static and does not move or come down so not much of an issue for me. After that, I will likely draw one curve to my liking, cut it and use the scrap as a template for the other three curves. I've bragged about my lack of OCD and apathy being my superpower so if it's covered by vinyl it's all good.

I'm considering more of what I'll coin as a "lifeboat" shape; flatter ends like some of the tables one might see on television. I also think this will be my first "pedestaled" table. I have two pedestals I've been hoping to get into service and it looks like this might be the time.

The only obstacle I see is if I need wider vinyl. Poker suppliers sell it in 4 foot widths and I might have to look elsewhere for this build. It won't be so much wider that standard width cloth won't work so I should be good there. Maybe even with the standard vinyl. We'll see.

The only concession I might have to make is the betting line. I could live eternally on tilt if the betting line was not the same shape as the table itself. I might consider adding one but the possibility not looking good seems high. I've only had a table with one for the last couple of years. That said, I might just try the cloth I have (purchasing it new of course) and see if it looks good. It very well may...

Everything else is standard. When the table is finished and naked (without dressing) if I have the fixings, I can complete the project in a matter of hours. Even this newly hatched scheme and dream is no more than a weekend build once all things have been accounted for.

**EDIT**
After looking at my table and space, the "stretching" of the base plywood will be much less to accomplish the space acquisition I'm looking to accomplish.
I'm envisioning adding no more than 6 inches side to side and no more than maybe

This build once it begins will be co-managed by my son-in-law and my games banker Big T. I'll start a dedicated (with a likely copy and pasted opening post) for this build. The energy for this undertaking is high at GFC so I will start with getting the measurements and sketching out the table.

Here we go...

 

[LotsOfChips]

how much larger I want to make my version of a Lame Curve

I ended up deciding on 90" x 45" with a n=2.3. I mocked it up in 3D modeling, and it fits 8 chairs with lots of room, but 10 chairs is a teeny bit tight (but still do-able). 96x48 should be tons of room for 10 (or 11 in a pinch)

 

[merkong]

I ended up deciding on 90" x 45" with a n=2.3. I mocked it up in 3D modeling, and it fits 8 chairs with lots of room, but 10 chairs is a teeny bit tight (but still do-able). 96x48 should be tons of room for 10 (or 11 in a pinch)

The standard oval (out of 4x8 sheet of plywood) does 10 seats very comfortably. It’s those sight lines people want to improve on. I can attest to the “regular” ellipse being snug in the corners especially with a 6” rail which you need for jumbo drink holders.

We regularly get that 11th seat bellied up but as it is, we will lose a chair within a couple of hours at the cash game. The Lame Curve should help with both issues.

I don’t know about cutting it out of a standard 4x8 sheet with the effects of rail width and the fact that 11 is not ideal on an oval out that sized piece.

Son in law are configuring how to “make” a larger sheet of plywood. In theory we know how to we just have to draw it up and start cutting.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Taghkanic]

My Gorilla Illuminati table is 94 x 46 inches, rails included.

I can get 10 seats (9 + a dealer) squeezed in if really necessary. But it is much more comfortable with 9 seats (8 + a dealer).

Per my estimate at the link below, the Illuminati appears to have an n ratio of 2.33:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/gorilla-gaming-poker-table.86011/post-2219167

I am guessing that going even a hair bigger (say, 96 x 48) would make it more suitable for 10 seats since the curves exaggerate those small differences.

Note: My (very comfy!) seats may be slightly wider than what others use, so the extra couple inches may not be needed. I recently removed the armrests except on the dealer’s chair and that seems to help a little when we play 9+1.

 

[fishandchips]

Back in 2012 I had seen some terrible big ellipse tables with super tight radius at the ends. And not having CNC at that time I came up with the Dual_Curve that I could make with a standard router.

You choose a suitable end radius and then draw two circles at the length you want the table. Then you blend large radius curves for the long edges, adjusting the radius to give the width that works for you.

Sadly no completed photo, or photos of the long router curve jig, not sure why. Looks like I was also experimenting with using up scraps. This was a short stubby one, 63x40 according to my records. Longer narrower versions look a bit more different to an ellipse. Never built a large one, I was never really satisfied with large tables and gave up making them around that time as well.

I've just knocked together a 96x48 Dual_Curve with End Radius 18" and Side Radius 100" which looks a bit like the proportions you are playing with.

edit: PS. Looking at the circles on that 96x48 layout reminds me that for the same materials (roughly) you can build two 48" round tables. Which is the way I will be going.