Tourney Suggestions please on what to do if the tournament doesn't end on time (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

Hello and thanks for checking out my post!

I'm setting up a small 20 person league set to kick off soon. And in establishing the rules I've run into something I haven't thought of a creative solution to.

For reasons that probably aren't relevant to this discussion, it's non-negotiable that league events must conclude by midnight. Cards are in the air at 7.

I understand elements like shorter rounds as the tournament advances, eliminating breaks, etc. - I'm all pretty familiar with all those tactics. What I'm looking for is advice on what to do if midnight strikes and there are still players in the tournament.

Some ideas I thought of are:

• Award prizes and league points based on chip counts at the end of the night;
• Put contingencies in place to discourage stalling or idle play;
• Put every player all in every hand/deal the hand out, and repeat this process until all players are eliminated;
• Adjust blind structure and/or start subsequent events earlier.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can dispense.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

With 20 players and 4 1/2 hours, excluding a half hour for breaks, there really is no reason why you can't get things done by midnight with the correct structure. (That's a whole other discussion which I'm happy to get into but I don't want to derail if that's not what your asking.)

That said, there should be a contingency for what to do if there are still players at midnight, and this should be told to players up front. The plan I would recommend would be an icm chop, at 11:50 play stops, stacks are counted and people paid out. If there's a title/trophy it goes to the chip leader.

I would discourage trying to regulate players behavior, as far as stalling and such, beyond a blanket house rule that says "don't take a long time on routine decisions."

 

[abby99]

In the mid-2000s I was at Harrah's in LV and was curious about their morning tournament that was scheduled to run for a specific time (2 hrs?). How did they do that, I asked. They simply end it, I was told. Biggest stack takes first, next biggest stack takes second, and so forth. I dont recall whether ICM was a thing then, or whether they cared.

 

[Mojo1312]

One thought is not to combine tables until you are down to the final six. This allows for a greater number of hands to be played. A hard stop is the other option. You can also stop the clock at midnight if no deal has been struck and deal out three more hands (edit: or one orbit), subsequently paying out 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. in order of player's stacks.

 

[BGinGA]

An ICM chop for cash (and points, if awarded) is probably the fairest way to conclude an event without it progressing to a natural finish.

But one problem with hard stop times is that it actually can slow the tournament down in the last few levels. Players will stop playing hands to either protect their chip lead (and resulting position), or attempt to outlast others with similar stack sizes (and move up in $$/points).

Personally, I recommend using a shot clock and/or time chips/cards to ensure things move along during the course of the event. As stated above, a well-structured event will hardly ever go over the allotted time. If you have a hard 5-hour window, then the tournament should be set up to last around 4 hours plus breaks. It will almost always finish early, but it will (almost) never run too long.

 

[Wils]

Set off the fire alarm

 

[Beakertwang]

If those yahoos can't finish the game on time, you, as the tourney director, get to kick everyone out and keep the cash. They'll learn their lesson!

 

[DoubleEagle]

An ICM chop for cash (and points, if awarded) is probably the fairest way to conclude an event without it progressing to a natural finish.

Back before I was running our league, we used to have a hard stop because we played in a bar and had to be finished by closing time which oddly was 12:00 AM. We awarded cash and points based on stacks. Not ideal, but it worked for us.

When the league was not running, it was a shove fest at the end.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Aim for an 11:30 end time. Then rapidly escalate blinds after that. 100% increase every 10 minutes. It's ugly, but every minute after 11:30 is "overtime" anyway, so tell bitching players that they are in sudden death. It would take a minor miracle for it to last 30 minutes, and IMHO it's better than a hard stop where delays (small tanks, "misdeals", "accidents" etc.) by the chip leader are rewarded.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Additional tips for ending on time...

Minimize clock stoppages: I helped a friend set up his own tournament. He used my blinds, my clock, and (until he got his own chips) my chips. His game ran an hour and a half longer than mine did. He paused the clock every break for color-ups. He paused it if his table was in a hand when the break started, so everyone could get the full break. You can pause the clock, but you cannot stop time. Plan accordingly.

The 20 BB rule: When the total number of chips on the table (all starting stacks and rebuy chips) is equal to 20 BB, the tournament should end. In a perfectly matched heads up situation, you have 2 players with 10 BB each. That pretty much commits all but the nittiest players to being able to bet one hand past the flop. In my above post if you 2x the blinds in overtime, they would have only 2.5 BB between them, and even nitty players would be all-in in the last 10 minutes.

Start on time: Sounds easy, but many hosts (and even casinos) struggle with this one. If you start at 7, collect money at 6:45 (or as soon as your guest arrives). Don't wait up for the player that is on his way. Start the timer and get cards in the air. Have the late players chips ready (chip tubes or ziplock bags) so you don't even have to get up - make him come to you. Explain that being late is inconvenient. You too must have your ducks lined up. Do a dry run if you have to. Get the music or TVs going and on the right channel. Have change ready. Have rebuy stacks pre-set (again chip tubes or ziplocks). Just remember: late starts = late finishes.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

Starting on time is huge. Not only will it help you meet your ending goals, but players really appreciate it. I have a hugely profitable home game about five minutes from me, I don’t play there nearly as often as I should simply because they have a 730 start time that often ends up being closer to 830. Drives me insane.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

Never stopping the clock is also great advice, when I run my home tournaments the clock never stops but for one exception – when we redraw for the final table, even then I take great pains to tell everyone this is not a break and I try to get the clock moving as soon as I can. If I’ve got three tables or more, I always announce as the break approaches “If you have a lot of chips, you should go to the bathroom now rather than wait for the break because there will be a line and I do not stop the clock.”

 

[DoubleEagle]

Start on time: Sounds easy, but many hosts (and even casinos) struggle with this one.

My biggest pet peeve with home tourneys. Drives me nuts.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful advice. This has given me many ideas and eased my anxiety about this.

Additional tips for ending on time...

Minimize clock stoppages...

The 20 BB rule: When the total number of chips on the table (all starting stacks and rebuy chips) is equal to 20 BB, the tournament should end. In a perfectly matched heads up situation, you have 2 players with 10 BB each. That pretty much commits all but the nittiest players to being able to bet one hand past the flop. In my above post if you 2x the blinds in overtime, they would have only 2.5 BB between them, and even nitty players would be all-in in the last 10 minutes.

Start on time:...

Starting on time and clock management won't be an issue. I will be very diligent on this.

This isn't my first time running tournaments - I've actually done this on and off for years. I've just never dealt with a hard stop before.

As to the '20 BB rule', how do you predict that when considering variables such as fluctuating participation numbers, # of rebuys/add-ons, etc.?

Follow up question - How about this for a proposed rule:

If the tournament hasn't concluded by 11:30 pm, the BB will be adjusted (up) to an amount equal to 5% of the chips in play, and blinds will double every 10 minutes thereafter until the tournament ends.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Rebiys/addons are difficult to calculate initially. Every group plays differently based off aggression, and the cost of rebuys or add-ons compared to the players disposable income. Limiting rebuys to 1 per player helps, but experience with your group is the only way. I can tell you I typically see 33% of my players using their 1 rebuy, but I also know some will always rebuy (if eliminated in the rebuy window), and others rarely rebuy. People are different.

However, with 20 players, if your calculation is off by 1 -5 rebuys it is inconsequential. By the end game they are increasing the pot only a few %.

As for differing starting numbers, you can adjust starting stacks as necessary. I give more chips when I have fewer players. For example, (for a regular tournament) if I have 12 players sign up, I can start with T10,000 stacks, but if I have 16 players sign up, we each start with T8000.

If the tournament hasn't concluded by 11:30 pm, the BB will be adjusted (up) to an amount equal to 5% of the chips in play, and blinds will double every 10 minutes thereafter until the tournament ends.

I would find that to be unwieldy. The blind structure will get you there unless you seriously under calculated the number of chips you have in play.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Thanks again. I've worked the structure so that it should be a shove-fest by 11:40, unless every single person rebuys 19 times each

 

[Gobbs]

If the tournament hasn't concluded by 11:30 pm, the BB will be adjusted (up) to an amount equal to 5% of the chips in play, and blinds will double every 10 minutes thereafter until the tournament ends.

Unless I was 95 percent confident that the tournament will end before this, I would never play in a tournament with this rule. It is incredibly unfair to play good poker for 4+ hours and then have the tournament suddenly turned into an "all-in every hand luck-fest" at the end, which is essentially what this would be.

Structure the tournament so that you don't have to worry about approaching the hard stop time. If the hard stop time is so important that you can't break it on rare occasions, then it is important enough to build the structure so it will finish in 4 hours instead of 41/2 hours, giving you plenty of wiggle room.

 

[T_Chan]

I played in a tournament once where 20 minutes before the curfew, the blinds doubled EVERY HAND! Suffice it to say I didn't go back.

 

[Poker Zombie]

That's why I suggest targeting an end time 30 minutes before curfew. Chances are good (in most games) that you may run 5-10 minutes long, but when dealing with a hard stop, I'd prefer flips for stacks (all luck based) vs. ICM payouts that can be abused by a big stack.

Hard stops are not ideal, but sometimes a reality. 2x blinds are as reasonable in "overtime" as penalty shots in hockey.

 

[T_Chan]

I usually cut my last several blinds levels to a shorter time. 15 minute levels normally, cutting them down to 10 minutes makes a big difference.

 

[Gobbs]

That's why I suggest targeting an end time 30 minutes before curfew. Chances are good (in most games) that you may run 5-10 minutes long, but when dealing with a hard stop, I'd prefer flips for stacks (all luck based) vs. ICM payouts that can be abused by a big stack.

Hard stops are not ideal, but sometimes a reality. 2x blinds are as reasonable in "overtime" as penalty shots in hockey.

I don't understand how something all luck-based is better than an ICM payout, but that's not going to be my point here. My point is, fortunately, these are not the only two options. The third option is much better - plan the tournament to get over an hour before curfew to make sure it goes to a completion. Any other way is crap and you will (or at least should) lose players if it happens consistently.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't understand how something all luck-based is better than an ICM payout, but that's not going to be my point here. My point is, fortunately, these are not the only two options. The third option is much better - plan the tournament to get over an hour before curfew to make sure it goes to a completion. Any other way is crap and you will (or at least should) lose players if it happens consistently.

Sure, I agree 100%. That's why the first point was to schedule the tournament to end 30 minutes before the hard stop time. While mathematically unlikely to run 30 minutes longer, it is possible depending the number of hands per minute being played.

I have a fair amount of experience with hard-stop times. When we use our in-flight table on the airplane, there is a hard stop time 15 minutes before landing when the flight attendants give the "put your tray tables up" speech.

For the last flight to Denver (2h 22m from Nashville), we planned the tournament to last 1 hour, 52 minutes. This allows for the 15 minutes on either end of the flight that tray tables must be up, therefore the table must be put away. The blind structure...

T25s colored up at the end of the 150/300 level. A 7 minute bathroom break is calculated here, but is typically not necessary. However, we calculate for it, because you can pause the clock, but you cannot pause time.

So other than the typical 100% jump between level 1 and 2, it's an acceptable alternating 50%, 33% series of increases, for the anticipated 1:52 playable flight time. Because we don't typically need the bathroom in a 2 hour flight, we have those 7 minutes available to play into the 500/1000 level, a 67% increase. If we needed to squeeze out a few more minutes (ignoring the attendant) a 100% jump is issued.

Again, a hard stop is not ideal. With T8000 to start, we should end at level 7. Only "overtime" sees big increases, and even then, the first level of overtime is still normal.

I would find it unlikely that anyone would look at this structure and declare it crap.

Well, BGinGA might call it crap, because it doesn't have a 25/75 level