String betting - the rule that's always invoked for the wrong reason (1 Viewer)

[wickedwonka121]

I think it's annoying. I'm guilty of getting a cheap flop due to string bets. But that's why I announce the amount and stack the chips before pushing them in as a stack. I'll tip it or spread it so everyone can count it. I never do the double hand deal you describe. If I drink too much I'm just slower doing that same thing. Hehe

 

[upNdown]

Which is why I respect hosts/players that always enforce these rules all the time, every time, consistently.

I respect that too. I just don’t want to be that guy. I don’t want to police every action of every street of every hand. Again, I get that best practice is for the host to do so, and if I had a table full of beginners I surely would. But I don’t so I won’t. We’re all big boys; we can handle it. And when it blows up in my face, I’ll be sure to let you guys know.

 

[buffalojim]

Fair. I guess it probably doesn’t happen at casinos much, because people know they’re not getting away with that shit there. So if it’s a mostly home game thing, I’ve been lucky in that I can’t remember the last time I played in a home game with an asshole.

You know what they say, if you can't spot the asshole in the first 20 mins then....

 

[ekricket]

Fair. I guess it probably doesn’t happen at casinos much, because people know they’re not getting away with that shit there. So if it’s a mostly home game thing, I’ve been lucky in that I can’t remember the last time I played in a home game with an asshole.

The times I see this in a casino the dealer immediately verbalizes “call” if they are attentive. Then the argument occurs between the dealer and the offending player, not necessarily other players (although they all chime in).

It’s an angle no matter what. It’s like when someone goes all in, and a player four seats away immediately asks “how much?” They have indicated an interest in the pot out of turn, which can influence action before them. It’s a simple involuntary outburst, but it usually means you are semi-considering calling or raising.

Throwing one chip in to see who gets concerned or agitated is an angle. But this is ALWAYS met with a simple warning, nobody is ever penalized an orbit or anything. So it gets a lot less attention and it gets broken often.

It’s ironic to me that most movie poker shows behaviors such as this as normal - “I call your bet and raise you $500” - or any actions that are designed to get a reaction or confuse players. They portray it as a normal part of the game, and it continually creeps in with newer players as well, and they think it’s part of the game to “trick” other players using any means or ruses possible.
They portray poker as a game with no rules and shady characters intent on conning people, when it’s about the opposite, full of rules and people that want the rules enforced so the game plays consistently.

 

[upNdown]

t’s ironic to me that most movie poker shows behaviors such as this as normal - “I call your bet and raise you $500” - or any actions that are designed to get a reaction or confuse players. They portray it as a normal part of the game, and it continually creeps in with newer players as well, and they think it’s part of the game to “trick” other players using any means or ruses possible.
They portray poker as a game with no rules and shady characters intent on conning people, when it’s about the opposite, full of rules and people that want the rules enforced so the game plays consistently.

I remember when I started playing I heard a story about some guy who lied at showdown, announcing a big hand. The other guy mucked what should have been the winning hand.
I thought that was the coolest bluff I’d ever heard of, and I couldn’t wait to pull that trick myself. Fortunately I never remembered to try it and I soon learned that was cheating. But yeah, I hear you.

 

[TheYeti]

I remember when I started playing I heard a story about some guy who lied at showdown, announcing a big hand. The other guy mucked what should have been the winning hand.
I thought that was the coolest bluff I’d ever heard of, and I couldn’t wait to pull that trick myself. Fortunately I never remembered to try it and I soon learned that was cheating. But yeah, I hear you.

Not cheating. Way out of line? Yes. But not cheating.

 

[glynn]

Not cheating. Way out of line? Yes. But not cheating.

Uh it is definitely cheating lol.

 

[glynn]

There's another benefit of the string bet rule besides preventing a player from "getting a reaction": It's to signal a clear end to the player's action so we can confidently move tf on. I enforce it consistently at my game, and its appreciated by my players.

 

[raynmanas]

WHERE'S THE RULE BOOK

"prettiest wins"

 

[wickedwonka121]

Uh it is definitely cheating lol.

I'm on the fence about this in a home game. But at the casino, if you announce an amount you better pay.

 

[Machine]

Anybody else have a problem with the fact that string betting is almost always called just so people can see a cheap flop (or a cheap card) not because they think the guy was actually angling?
At my .25/.50 game last week, late in the night, somebody opened to $2, got 3 callers, so I made it $12. But I was more than half drunk and did it sloppily throwing out two $1s with one hand and two $5s with the other and apparently not quite at the same time. (I later checked with another player and he said yeah it was noticeable - for the game we were playing, I thought it was fine, but if you were at Foxwoods or something, they would have called it a string bet.)
Guy next to me was like what the fuck was that, that’s an illegal bet. And I said bullshit, I just used two hands at the same time. I asked the next player and he said yeah he also thought it was a string bet. So I immediately pulled back my raise and just flatted along with everybody else and we all got to see the flop for two bucks.

I know we have rules that we all have to follow, so okay fine. But does it annoy anybody else that this is how that rule is always called? I promise you, nobody at that table thought I was angling. If one hand came out after the the other it was less than half a second difference. Nobody at that table though thought I was trying to get a reaction or do something unfair - THEY ALL JUST WANTED TO SEE THE FLOP FOR CHEAP and so they busted me on a technicality.
And so yeah, I’m just whining about it. But that’s pretty much exactly how I’ve seen the rule invoked everytime, everywhere I’ve seen it invoked.
Does anybody else feel the same way? It’s not that it’s a bullshit rule, but it’s always invoked for bullshit reasons.
Maybe this should be in the bullshit thread.

So it is better to call a string raise against a non angler, than to let an angler take advantage.

Do we think you were angling, no, but the rule is there to protect against others that would.

I thought I read in RRoP or TDR that if you bet with your left hand, leave the hand beyond the betting line, and then use your right hand to shovel more chips in, its not a string bet. So in the case of tossing in multiple chips with both hands, so long as you didn't remove your first hand from beyond the betting line, technically its not a string raise.

 

[upNdown]

I thought I read in RRoP or TDR that if you bet with your left hand, leave the hand beyond the betting line, and then use your right hand to shovel more chips in, its not a string bet. So in the case of tossing in multiple chips with both hands, so long as you didn't remove your first hand from beyond the betting line, technically its not a string raise.

That’s interesting. I’ll try to run that down.

Also I’m beginning to wonder that bet was a tell. Because I feel like I usually announce my raises verbally. I was raising and reraising a lot that night with all sorts of hands. This time I had KK and I remember thinking that this time I have the goods, I’m gonna make a mint!
So now I’m wondering if my tossing out chips without announcing was a tell that I had a monster. Mike, the guy who called me out, is both a guy who’s never afraid of action and a guy who would pick up on such a tell. Hmm . . .

 

[JustinInMN]

Nobody at that table though thought I was trying to get a reaction or do something unfair - THEY ALL JUST WANTED TO SEE THE FLOP FOR CHEAP and so they busted me on a technicality.
And so yeah, I’m just whining about it. But that’s pretty much exactly how I’ve seen the rule invoked everytime, everywhere I’ve seen it invoked.
Does anybody else feel the same way? It’s not that it’s a bullshit rule, but it’s always invoked for bullshit reasons.
Maybe this should be in the bullshit thread.

The problem is the slope on this is pretty steep. Players have figured out that aside from being an angle, pace of play is also very much a benefit of keeping raises in one motion.

But I was more than half drunk and did it sloppily throwing out two $1s with one hand and two $5s with the other and apparently not quite at the same time.

And yes, I get you are questioning the motivation of those that want to enforce the rule. But come on, the way this bet went down at the very least served to tease those that wanted to see a cheap flop, even if that may not have crossed your half-drunk mind.

That said I am not super strict with the single-chip rule with players that have never encountered it, and I will always try and stop the action and take the moment to teach. I would put this in a similar vein, if it's at all possible to get the players to act as intended without damaging anyone else in the game, that's important.

But if you slide on this, then every time there's an action, we now have to pause to make sure both of the bettor's hands have released all chips. That's not at all in the best interest of the game.

 

[BPTDirector]

Really all that’s necessary are the words “I Raise” and you are covered. Act the same whether strong of weak.

 

[Budha]

For this reason…

I ALWAYS make a verbal bet. Always. I feel like if you have said it, your hands can do whatever

^^^ this!

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Really all that’s necessary are the words “I Raise” and you are covered. Act the same whether strong of weak.

I dont think this is true. If I say I raise, then slip $30 with one hand then follow it with $100 from the other, its still considered a string bet, no? Numbers random I dont remember OP specifics

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I thought I read in RRoP or TDR that if you bet with your left hand, leave the hand beyond the betting line, and then use your right hand to shovel more chips in, its not a string bet. So in the case of tossing in multiple chips with both hands, so long as you didn't remove your first hand from beyond the betting line, technically its not a string raise.

Huh - you're right. I didn't remember this, and I don't think I've ever seen it come up at a cash game, but here it is from Version 11, Section 14 of RRoP:

6. At non-tournament play, a player who says "raise" is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player’s hands come to rest outside the pot area. (This rule is used because no-limit play may require a large number of chips be put into the pot.) In tournament play, the TDA rules require that the player either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put the chips into the pot in a single motion, to avoid making a string-bet.

 

[BPTDirector]

Huh - you're right. I didn't remember this, and I don't think I've ever seen it come up at a cash game, but here it is from Version 11, Section 14 of RRoP:

Thank You! Very clear more than one move is legal with just the word Raise, or two words I Raise.

 

[WedgeRock]

If you allow string betting, but only for certain instances (obviously an angle not among them), then you have to delve into the intention of the better.

I prefer a bright line rule.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

You keep using the word 'always'. I do not think that word means what you think it means!

 

[Burke]

Huh - you're right. I didn't remember this, and I don't think I've ever seen it come up at a cash game, but here it is from Version 11, Section 14 of RRoP:

Wow I would amend this rule for my game to match the tournament version of the rule - thanks for the pointing it out!

 

[upNdown]

If you allow string betting, but only for certain instances (obviously an angle not among them), then you have to delve into the intention of the better.

I prefer a bright line rule.

Hey, I know that’s right. I guess one of the reasons this frustrated me is because I’m not sure it actually was a string bet. In this thread, you’ve heard from one guy who was at the table, who said he thought I could have successfully argued that it wasn’t. But it would take something far more egregious than this to get me to argue at my own home game, so I just let it go.

But before I check the rules, for the sake of argument, here’s what I believe happened:
I picked up two chips with my left hand and two chips with my right hand at the same time.
I moved both hands forward at approximately the same time.
I released chips from one hand while the other hand was moving forward.
The other hand released its chips less than a half-second after the first.

So even though two chips were released a split second before the other two chips, both hands were moving forward at the same time.

 

[upNdown]

Here’s all I can find on my phone - it’s tough with the search functions of a computer. The first picture is the TDA rule, the second is Robert’s Rules. Both seem pretty clear that “single motion” is the standard.
I’ll argue that if both my hands start moving at the same time and finish within a split second of one another, that’s a single motion. It doesn’t specifically say “single hand.”

 

[WedgeRock]

I’m not sure it actually was a string bet.

It sucks, but as a host, I think you have to be extra strict with the rules when you're in the hand. I think you did that right.

That said (and admittedly I wasn't there, but for the academic exercise), I'd argue that two hands holding two different groups of chips (and not used in conjuction to move multiple barrels) can never be one motion.

Zero doubt in my mind that it was not an angle. But when you need to make a ruling that involves your actions, best to avoid the appearance of impropriety. And others see how you rule on such an iffy situation, they can't complain later.

The irony, is you don't need this rule with a bunch of regulars in a home game, yet those same regulars will rarely do something like this that could be misconstrued. But it protects the new and inexperienced players.

I like the way someone else said they handle a one-chip raise...confirm the intention immediately before someone else acts.

Glad to hear you still took the pot down, though you might've made more with a PF raise...

 

[CHP TD]

Can i ask - how did you make it 12? did you say raise, then use 2 hands? did you not say nothing then use 2 hands?

can you explain exactly how you made it 12?

Overall i think all of these "how would you call this" questions can be solved easily if you had a set of rules.

mine read like this.

• A player’s first action is binding. Either the voice or action.
• 
  
• String Betting - All betting is to be made in one action. Example: I will call your bet and raise… is not allowed. Only the call is legitimate. It is designed to induce a tell from an opponent and is not to occur. In the event of a String Bet, the bettor will be bound to the first move made, whether vocal or physical.

So if you used 2 hands thats 2 actions. Your first action would be what hit the table first in this case that would be the ones. could call or leave the 2 1s there and retrive the 2 5's being the illegal bet or you could fold and leave the 2 1s there or call.

therefore there is no question what happens if you have rules and all these questions are solved.

Get rules and apply them consistently? this stops arguments from happening. it makes the game run smoothly.

Casinos have them - and also have them on display. these are the professionals. they do that for a reason. Everyone should too.

It seriously makes your hosting life easier and more fun. Guaranteed!!!!

 

[Taghkanic]

While I do agree with your premise that this is almost always a mistake, not an angle, and that hardworking hosts probably ought to get some leeway, I still think it was right to enforce it.

ANALOGY: What about when some old guy does the whole “I see your 5… and raise you 20” thing?

100% the old guy is just exercising a habit from 40 years ago, or else repeating something he saw in a John Wayne movie. It’s not an angle, he’s just kind of a moldy cheeseball.

But as host I’m still gonna say something.

I remember a reg bringing his father “who loves poker” to my game, and of course this exact thing happened.

The first time I let the raise stand, since the string bet was made in pure ignorance. But John Wayne got a friendly update on current practices/rules.

The second time his string bet became just a call.

So since you knew the rule (and probably at some point have enforced the rule, or something similar), I’d say your players were within their rights to take some revenge. Silly, yes. Correct, also.

Anyhoo… Who won the hand? :^]

 

[Strike]

Hey, I know that’s right. I guess one of the reasons this frustrated me is because I’m not sure it actually was a string bet. In this thread, you’ve heard from one guy who was at the table, who said he thought I could have successfully argued that it wasn’t. But it would take something far more egregious than this to get me to argue at my own home game, so I just let it go.

But before I check the rules, for the sake of argument, here’s what I believe happened:
I picked up two chips with my left hand and two chips with my right hand at the same time.
I moved both hands forward at approximately the same time.
I released chips from one hand while the other hand was moving forward.
The other hand released its chips less than a half-second after the first.

So even though two chips were released a split second before the other two chips, both hands were moving forward at the same time.

given what you said, I would have allowed it at my home game, but then I would've said just be clear with what you want to raise. I do enforce the one chip rule. as well as avoiding string betting all my players learn very quickly. usually it only has to be taught once. I never mean it with any malicious intent. and I've never had any problem with people following the rules. We always have a good time.

 

[Strike]

Also, what you mentioned you did? that's a little nitpicking, I would've corrected you requesting a more clear betting message but would've allowed it to stand, your intention wasn't to string bet. We're strict with the rules but we allow "honest mistakes" to stand if intention was understood and correction stated.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

ANALOGY: What about when some old guy does the whole “I see your 5… and raise you 20” thing?

We call this the Southern Gentleman. 100% legal as long as you HMMPH HMMPH atleast once and put on a heavy drawl.

 

[WedgeRock]

So if you used 2 hands thats 2 actions. Your first action would be what hit the table first in this case that would be the ones.

This is the right result, but for the wrong reason. What is he released chips from both hands at the exact same time, but he tossed the $1 chips just a bit higher, so the $5 chips hit the table first? Raise to $10?