Tourney Ruling. WWYD? (2 Viewers)

Trihonda

Trihonda

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In a tourney.

Im Player A in the BB.
20bb effective.

Player B limps.

Player C on the button jams for 3 bb.

I flat the 2bb, player B flats.

Board runs out, both me and player B check it down, as neither of us hit.

Player C immediately tables top set. And player B shows his hand as k high. I toss my losing hand into the muck,

Random player reaches into the muck, retrieves my hand and tables it face up. People chastise him for exposing my hand, and he claims I have to show since there was an all in. I explained was not all in, and mucked my hand when a winner was shown. This player insisted I was required to show.

What does the hive mind say?
 
I’m not a tourney guy. But I do believe I’ve heard that in tourneys, all hands in the all in pots are to be shown to avoid potential collusion. Ie chip dumping or whatever.

I’m not sure in this case as it’s not heads up. Maybe it’s just a heads up rule, iono. But that’s probably what that guy was thinking. Hope that makes it more confusing, you’re welcome.
 
Because there could be action on the side, I believe the villain is wrong.

Due to the possible side action you have the option to give up a claim to the pot.

Also, if someone were to dig in the much it would be the TA not some self-serving jackass. I would have insisted on this point that he ride the rail for at least an orbit.
 
As action was still possible for the entire hand there was no showdown between player A and B (players checked the hand down). As no showdown there is no requirement for A and B to show.

Random player is wrong. And doubly wrong for turning another's mucked hand. That should only be done by dealers and TDs.
 
All players must show. TDA Rule 16, also comes with an example that’s similar to situation with OP.
 

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When any player is all in, all players that reach show down must show. This is a collusion protection rule. Imagine you and the all in player were friends and you had the winner at the showdown. You muck to keep him in the tourney. What you did would be cheering.
 
I agree with the others, grabbing the cards out of the muck is not cool but all hands should flip at end of action.
 
Thanks for all the replies This was a bar tourney, 5 tables. Generally very casual.

While I don’t usually have an issue showing, there was zero potential for collusion, as there wasn’t a side pot to win, and the BB showed the absolute nuts. He was winning the pot, and it was almost instantaneous that he excitedly tabled his top set, and I tossed my losing hand into the muck.

I acknowledge the rule requiring the tabling of hands. The guy was technically in the right to request I show, but his actions were very much an abnormality in this game. To reach into the muck and flip up cards was eyebrow raising to many at the table. He correctly cited the protection against collusion, but as stated, that wasn’t possible in this circumstance. It was an excuse to satiate his curiosity.
 
Trihonda said:
The guy was technically in the right to request I show
Click to expand...
It's not his right to request. It's his right to demand.

In your example,
  • The dealer should have required all cards face-up before dealing the flop.
  • The dealer should have "protected the muck", preventing your unexposed cards from ever reaching the muck.
  • Cards that are retrievable are still live. If the player knew exactly which 2 cards were yours, the dealer should have turned them up.
Basically, you were in the wrong. Not for discarding, but for playing "bar poker". That shit is still wild west without the guns.
 
Poker Zombie said:
It's not his right to request. It's his right to demand.

In your example,
  • The dealer should have required all cards face-up before dealing the flop.
  • The dealer should have "protected the muck", preventing your unexposed cards from ever reaching the muck.
  • Cards that are retrievable are still live. If the player knew exactly which 2 cards were yours, the dealer should have turned them up.
Basically, you were in the wrong. Not for discarding, but for playing "bar poker". That shit is still wild west without the guns.
Click to expand...
Bold above is wrong. 3 players to the flop, only 1 player was all-in. the other 2 had chips and checked it down. Also, never expect a bar league "dealer" to know every rule. I'd bet its a pass-the-deal game, and they just throw cards and put out the boards.

Bottom line of your post is accurate. :-)
 
krafticus said:
Bold above is wrong. 3 players to the flop, only 1 player was all-in. the other 2 had chips and checked it down. Also, never expect a bar league "dealer" to know every rule. I'd bet its a pass-the-deal game, and they just throw cards and put out the boards.

Bottom line of your post is accurate. :-)
Click to expand...
I misread the OP. :oops:

Dealer should have required all cards face up after the final check.
 
Im learning from this, as dealer and host I have players show while working through sidepots, so I'd have only players A and B show (if there was a sidepot), then C; if C showed already and there was no sidepot I probably wouldn't be forcing the show but now I know the rule.
 
Poker Zombie said:
It's not his right to request. It's his right to demand.

In your example,
  • The dealer should have required all cards face-up before dealing the flop.
  • The dealer should have "protected the muck", preventing your unexposed cards from ever reaching the muck.
  • Cards that are retrievable are still live. If the player knew exactly which 2 cards were yours, the dealer should have turned them up.
Basically, you were in the wrong. Not for discarding, but for playing "bar poker". That shit is still wild west without the guns.
Click to expand...
Self dealt game.

As mentioned, we were not all in on the flop. Action wasn’t closed until the last check, at which the Button insta tabled his absolute nutz and I tossed my cards into the muck. It’s wad that quick. There was no side pot. He won, tripled up, I lost 3bb, next hand. No biggie. But you’re right, the random player has a right to demand my cards be retrieved. But it’s so far outside the norm for this game. And I wish the random player had stopped action and called the floor (TD), rather than take it upon himself to reach into the muck and table my hand.
 
Trihonda said:
It was an excuse to satiate his curiosity.
Click to expand...
It goes both ways though. The other player having the nuts is your excuse to not have to show. Mucking a winner isn’t the only possibility for collusion, you could also be calling with garbage to try and give your friend more chips. Obviously the specifics of the betting in this hand make it so garbage is very likely but you should have shown no matter what.
 
Trihonda said:
Thanks for all the replies This was a bar tourney, 5 tables. Generally very casual.

While I don’t usually have an issue showing, there was zero potential for collusion, as there wasn’t a side pot to win, and the BB showed the absolute nuts. He was winning the pot, and it was almost instantaneous that he excitedly tabled his top set, and I tossed my losing hand into the muck.

I acknowledge the rule requiring the tabling of hands. The guy was technically in the right to request I show, but his actions were very much an abnormality in this game. To reach into the muck and flip up cards was eyebrow raising to many at the table. He correctly cited the protection against collusion, but as stated, that wasn’t possible in this circumstance. It was an excuse to satiate his curiosity.
Click to expand...
Just because he hits the nuts and can show a winner, it doesn't mean collusion isn't possible or wasn't attempted. C'mon man LOL.

If I'm at a bar tournament for 9bb I'm probably letting it slide though if the game is as casual as it seems.
 

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