Tourney Ruling question (home game MTT)

Poquiler

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UTG moves all in, all other players fold to the big blind, who goes in the tank.

Meanwhile, dealer thinks BB folded, and gathers all mucked cards and combines them with remaining deck.

Clearly cards need to be reshuffled but should the cards from folded hands be accounted for (burn 14 cards)?
 

markleteenie

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Following, this is interesting.

I don't know, but I think the hand has to be ruled dead, unless the entire 14 cards can be separated/accounted for, like were either put on top of the stub or under the stub. If it is mixed up, I think that's too far.
 

CraigT78

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No idea on the official rule - I'll let @BGinGA enlighten us - but my split decision ruling would be to shuffle the deck and proceed as normal, burn and flop.
 

JustinInMN

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I don't think ruling the hand dead is an option at this point. There has been significant action with an all in player and players folding in response.

I think if we are past the point of any hope of identifying the muck cards then they get shuffled with the stub and deal as normal.

If it can be figured out (dealer put all the muck cards on the top or bottom for example) then make the effort to correct it and deal normally. Otherwise since all the cards are unseen I would find shuffling the stub with the birns and dealing accordingly the next best solution.

The only other option I see is to rule the big blinds' hand dead if he did anything to cause the dealer to think he folded. (Hid his cards from view for example.)

This is just my gut without looking at TDA, I will see what they say now.
 

JustinInMN

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UTG moves all in, all other players fold to the big blind, who goes in the tank.

Meanwhile, dealer thinks BB folded, and gathers all mucked cards and combines them with remaining deck.

Could you clarify how long BB is in the tank? It seems odd to me the dealer would miss someone in the tank and then suddenly scoop the cards knowing someone was in the tank?
 

pltrgyst

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There is no negative affect on UTG if the hand proceeds. It doesn't matter unless the BB calls. Let him decide if he wants to call -- either a misdeal, or proceed as suggested above.
 

FordPickup92

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Recently encountered this, however it was after the turn, all mucked cards were identified placed on the bottom of the stack, with the burns. Burned and turned river from the top as normal. (Without knowing where the muck cards were and being different timing in the hand leaves me unsure here)
 

JustinInMN

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So I looked at TDA and I was actually pretty close.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mg0oc5e9...+Longform+Redlines+from+2017+Version+1.0.docx

Now it is under their recommended procedures addendum, not the main ruleset, so I imagine a TD would have some leeway to come up with the approach that's most fair given the wide range of possible circumstances.

RP-4. Disordered Stub.

When cards remain to be dealt on a hand and the stub is accidentally dropped and appears to be disordered: 1) first try to reconstruct the stub in its original order if possible; 2) If not possible, created a new stub using only the stub cards (not the muck & prior burns). These should be scrambled, shuffled, cut, & play proceeds with the new stub; 3) If when dropped the stub is mixed in with the muck and/or burns, then scramble the mixed cards together, shuffle, and cut. Play proceeds with the new stub.

So bottom line, make the effort to reconstruct the stub if possible. Continuing with a stub that is known to be mixed with muck cards is acceptable as a last resort.
 

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  1. If you can clearly identify the stub, retrieve it, burn and turn.
  2. If you can reasonably identify the stub but it's scattered, scramble it, burn and turn.
  3. If you can't identify the stub, scramble the stub and the entire muck together, burn and turn.
The hand is never a misdeal.
 

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BB was sort of fiddling with his cards, holding them off the table. I think dealer the thought he mucked.

Then BB waited to get a ruling from the host before making his decision. Why? I have no idea.
 

trigs

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BB was sort of fiddling with his cards, holding them off the table. I think dealer the thought he mucked.

Then BB waited to get a ruling from the host before making his decision. Why? I have no idea.
Did he wait for decision and then muck?
 

grebe

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It's all arbitrary as to what BB did and why he did it. The important part is that you continue with play correctly and everybody who is still in the hand continues to have their options allowed. Killing hands and declaring misdeals happens way too frequently in home games.
 

BGinGA

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Action is on the BB, he has only two options: call or fold.

"Wait for ruling" is not one of them. Make a decision, or face a clock and/or penalty.

If he folds, award the pot and move on to the next hand. If he calls, reconstruct the deck as best possible and deal the hand out (using the guidelines posted above by @JustinInMN and @DoubleEagle). The hand is never ruled dead, since significant action (as defined by the rules) has already occurred.

All of this assuming that UTG still holds his cards. If those were mucked too, well, that situation gets a little more messy.
 
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grebe

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SPECIFICALLY in a home game situation, where people make some horrendous rulings, if I were the BB, I would wait for 2 reasons:

1. That's my BB out there. If somebody is going to do something with it out of my control, I want to continue to have cards to have a say what happens. If I fold, I relinquish that say.

2. I want to know how "the house" is going to make a ruling....that info is very important to have. I have been squarely burned lately for being the nice guy and trying to be helpful to keep the game moving, and now I proceed much more cautiously in games so that nobody can take advantage of me.
 

grebe

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BB was sort of fiddling with his cards, holding them off the table. I think dealer the thought he mucked.

Then BB waited to get a ruling from the host before making his decision. Why? I have no idea.

This does not constitute a fold. If I could count on one hand how many times I have watched somebody hold their cards when the action was on them, I would have a lot of fingers on that hand.
 

Poquiler

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This does not constitute a fold. If I could count on one hand how many times I have watched somebody hold their cards when the action was on them, I would have a lot of fingers on that hand.

Yeah, it wasn't just holding them off the felt but basically had him in the "about to pitch em in the muck" position. He wasn't angle-shooting, I think he was just not really experienced. Had I not been the UTG in the hand, I probably would have pointed out that he basically did a pump-fake muck which isn't cool

It was last hand before long overdue break so most of the table wasn't really paying attention.
 

Chipman22

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No idea on the official rule - I'll let @BGinGA enlighten us - but my split decision ruling would be to shuffle the deck and proceed as normal, burn and flop.
I think this would be the play. In no expert though.when calculating pot odds you have to assume your outs are all in the deck even if other players may have them. So mathematically... Is there a difference?
 

Kidd32

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2. I want to know how "the house" is going to make a ruling....that info is very important to have.
You have a point, it is very important to know the fairness and authority of the host.
No idea why......was holding cards in hands about a foot above the felt.
In my home game, taking cards out of the virtual vertical cylinder of the felt is a fold, we are not playing basketball, you can't jump out of bounds to catch your cards....
 

JustinInMN

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It's all arbitrary as to what BB did and why he did it. The important part is that you continue with play correctly and everybody who is still in the hand continues to have their options allowed. Killing hands and declaring misdeals happens way too frequently in home games.

I don't quite agree with this, if the BB put his cards out of the dealer's view and that caused the dealer to reasonably believe the BB no longer had a hand, I think there's a case the BB's hand is dead. I've been playing so long that it's unthinkable anyone would take their cards below the table, but figured it was worth asking.

BB was sort of fiddling with his cards, holding them off the table. I think dealer the thought he mucked.

Then BB waited to get a ruling from the host before making his decision. Why? I have no idea.

No idea why......was holding cards in hands about a foot above the felt.

So dealer error, he just saw cards missing and assumed they'd been tossed without actually seeing them tossed.

SPECIFICALLY in a home game situation, where people make some horrendous rulings, if I were the BB, I would wait for 2 reasons:

1. That's my BB out there. If somebody is going to do something with it out of my control, I want to continue to have cards to have a say what happens. If I fold, I relinquish that say.

2. I want to know how "the house" is going to make a ruling....that info is very important to have. I have been squarely burned lately for being the nice guy and trying to be helpful to keep the game moving, and now I proceed much more cautiously in games so that nobody can take advantage of me.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. In the BB shoes I would want an understanding that if I decide to call whatever the host rules before the run-out will be binding and not reconsidered. Though I suppose if I am going to fold anyway, maybe it doesn't matter as much, but I really don't have a problem with trying to feel out the host on this situation, even if I am going to fold.

I would also like to congratulate the PCF community for refraining from the usual call for violence toward the dealer, which will now undoubtedly change now that I have planted the seed.
 
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