Tourney Ruling question for deck reshuffled mid hand (35 Viewers)

[ShervinS]

Would like to hear your thoughts on how to handle this situation that happened in our monthly home game tournament:

I’m at another table, so I couldn’t intervene before after the fact.

We use 2 decks, red and blue, to speed up the game. The red deck is in play, the blue is being shuffled.

Red deck:
- Player A: 3♣3♦also the one dealing.
- Player B: 6♣6♦

Both go all-in preflop.

Before the flop is dealt, the shuffler accidentally shuffles the undealt portion of the RED deck in play.

One player saw it happen and flagged it, at which point the shuffler said “no I didnt”.

Player A shrugs it off and deals the board.

The flop, turn, and river are dealt from the reshuffled stub.
Player B with pocket sixes wins.

After the hand is over, everyone around the table now voices that the shuffler did in fact DEFINITELY reshuffle the stub by mistake.

Now - Player A is not happy with this and wants the hand declared dead and get back the stacks.

How would you rule this?

 

[TheRealStephen12]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/ruling-needed-after-dealer-error.133593/
This thread ruled you play it out, so it was correctly handled.

 

[Machine]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/ruling-needed-after-dealer-error.133593/
This thread ruled you play it out, so it was correctly handled.

Yeah, NO. With all due respect to Bob, RIP, and the great members who interpreted the Cash rule set, Fck That.

The hand is fouled, and the action should be backed up imo. Caveat: Not after both players agreed to run it as is.

Stand by; I'll check the TDA

35.E: Fouled decks.If 2 or more cards of the same suit and rank are found, the deck is fouled. Other fouled deck conditions may be defined by local gaming regulations and house policy. If a fouled deck is discovered, regardless of SA, play will stop and all bets will be returned. Once a hand concludes, the right to dispute based on a fouled deck ends according to Rule 22.

 

[GamingWithChips]

I’m of the mind that it doesn’t matter at all, player A feels like it matters, but he could have (and should have probability wise) often lost the hand.

In this situation my group would hold a quick vote with those still in the hand if they either play it out as is, or call the hand dead. Often people would call the hand dead because it feels like bad juju, but it doesn’t actually affect the hand.

 

[Machine]

my group would hold a quick vote and majority rules

 

[GamingWithChips]

Haha, I tried to quickly edit “those involved in the hand”, otherwise I would agree with Kanye

 

[danopoker]

Player A has found himself behind pre, shuffles the deck, denies doing so, runs out the board, loses, then wants it declared a misdeal? Fuck all the way off.

If you find yourself all in and behind as the dealer, you just foul the deck and everybody gets their money back? Yeah I have a problem with that.

 

[ballefrans]

Yeah, NO. With all due respect to Bob, RIP, and the great members who interpreted the Cash rule set, Fck That.

The hand is fouled, and the action should be backed up imo. Caveat: Not after both players agreed to run it as is.

Stand by; I'll check the TDA

35.E: Fouled decks.If 2 or more cards of the same suit and rank are found, the deck is fouled. Other fouled deck conditions may be defined by local gaming regulations and house policy. If a fouled deck is discovered, regardless of SA, play will stop and all bets will be returned. Once a hand concludes, the right to dispute based on

How is this a fouled deck?

And

Yeah, NO. With all due respect to Bob, RIP, and the great members who interpreted the Cash rule set, Fck That.

The hand is fouled, and the action should be backed up imo. Caveat: Not after both players agreed to run it as is.

Stand by; I'll check the TDA

35.E: Fouled decks.If 2 or more cards of the same suit and rank are found, the deck is fouled. Other fouled deck conditions may be defined by local gaming regulations and house policy. If a fouled deck is discovered, regardless of SA, play will stop and all bets will be returned. Once a hand concludes, the right to dispute based on a fouled deck ends according to Rule 22.

How is this a fouled deck?

If all bets are returned in this instance its the easiest angle of all time. If you are behind start shuffling the deck? Or am I missing something?

 

[ballefrans]

@danopoker was faster than me

 

[GamingWithChips]

Player A has found himself behind pre, shuffles the deck, denies doing so, runs out the board, loses, then wants it declared a misdeal? Fuck all the way off.

If you find yourself all in and behind as the dealer, you just foul the deck and everybody gets their money back? Yeah I have a problem with that.

Ya I forgot the dealer was also player A, big no no then as he can do as you said.

I was just thinking about probabilities and someone complaining about the cards being reshuffled and then them not sniping their 3…thats what I mean by “it does not matter” if the deck was accidentally reshuffled.

 

[Machine]

Would like to hear your thoughts on how to handle this situation that happened in our monthly home game tournament:

I’m at another table, so I couldn’t intervene before after the fact.

We use 2 decks, red and blue, to speed up the game. The red deck is in play, the blue is being shuffled.

Red deck:
- Player A: 3♣3♦also the one dealing.
- Player B: 6♣6♦

Both go all-in preflop.

Before the flop is dealt, the shuffler accidentally shuffles the undealt portion of the RED deck in play.

One player saw it happen and flagged it, at which point the shuffler said “no I didnt”.

Player A shrugs it off and deals the board.

The flop, turn, and river are dealt from the reshuffled stub.
Player B with pocket sixes wins.

After the hand is over, everyone around the table now voices that the shuffler did in fact DEFINITELY reshuffle the stub by mistake.

Now - Player A is not happy with this and wants the hand declared dead and get back the stacks.

How would you rule this?

How is this a fouled deck?

I need to explain that shuffling the dead wood / discards into the stub is fouled?

If all bets are returned in this instance its the easiest angle of all time. If you are behind start shuffling the deck? Or am I missing something?

So Player A, who is dealing, didn't shuffle the cards into the stub. He wasn't trying to angle until after the cards came out and he lost.

Which is why I noted the caveat.

The point in time where it would be a fouled hand is before running of the board.

 

[ShervinS]

The dealer was not the one shuffling the hand

Player A has found himself behind pre, shuffles the deck, denies doing so, runs out the board, loses, then wants it declared a misdeal? Fuck all the way off.

If you find yourself all in and behind as the dealer, you just foul the deck and everybody gets their money back? Yeah I have a problem with that.

 

[danopoker]

Got it. Still, you're all in and way behind, but wait until the runout to protest? Way too late.

 

[Max D]

Substantial action has occured and the hand is over (and it is not a fouled deck), player has relinquished all rights to contest the hand.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Does this group shuffle ahead? Pretty sure I know the answer.

 

[ballefrans]

I need to explain that shuffling the dead wood / discards into the stub is fouled?

So Player A, who is dealing, didn't shuffle the cards into the stub. He wasn't trying to angle until after the cards came out and he lost.

Which is why I noted the caveat.

The point in time where it would be a fouled hand is before running of the board.

I did not get that the shuffler and dealer are rwo different people. I am also daydrinking and on vacation so dont mind me.

 

[ShervinS]

One person shuffles the non-used deck while the used deck is being played, so there’s always a deck ready to go.

But the shuffling player accidentally grabbed the wrong deck..

 

[ShervinS]

Yeah to clarify:
Player A is playing + dealing
Player B is playing
Player Z is not in the hand, but is shuffling and accidentally shuffled the deck in play

 

[ShervinS]

Got it. Still, you're all in and way behind, but wait until the runout to protest? Way too late.

Yes. What complicated things was that the person who shuffled the deck by mistake initially said “no I didnt” when it was raised. At which point player A dealt the hand.

Then when the entire board was out, people insisted that it was indeed shuffled - at which point Player A wasn’t happy with it. So it opens up the question if the shuffler saying “no” that made player A go ahead and deal the board or not

 

[nynit]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/ruling-needed-after-dealer-error.133593/
This thread ruled you play it out, so it was correctly handled.

To expand on @TheRealStephen12, that thread notes which TDA rule applies:

RP-4. Disordered Stub
When cards remain to be dealt on a hand and the stub is accidentally dropped and appears to be disordered: 1) first try to reconstruct the stub in its original order if possible; 2) If not possible, create a new stub using only the stub cards (not the muck and prior burns). These should be scrambled, shuffled, cut, and play proceeds with the new stub; 3) If when dropped the stub is mixed in with the muck and/or burns, then scramble the mixed cards together, shuffle, and cut. Play proceeds with the new stub.

It seems the hand should've proceeded even if the shuffler had said "yes," maybe with an additional scramble+shuffle+cut. Did Player A give a reason for undoing action?

 

[curlyhead44]

It sounds like only the stub was shuffled not including the muck (as that player would then have to be over the board clearing shit which would be obvious), so the stub rule above applies and all is good.

 

[Deucekies]

Do. Not. Use. Two. Decks.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Do. Not. Use. Two. Decks.

That's. Bad. Advice.

 

[ShervinS]

Do. Not. Use. Two. Decks.

We’ve used two decks on 4 tables (24-32 man tournaments) for 3 years, never had an issue before.

This guy who made the mistake is quite lost though and will be asked not to manage shuffling or dealing.

1 mistake in 3 years does not outweigh the speedup of having a deck ready to go.

 

[ShervinS]

Seems quite clear that the answer is to just proceed with the hand.

Thanks all!

 

[ashetoother]

My general rule now is we leave it to chatgpt - it will decide how to proceed. This is what it recommended for this situation:

The hand should stand because only the legitimate undealt cards were reshuffled, which does not change either player’s odds or create a fouled deck. The correct procedure is to stop play, verify the stub, reshuffle and cut it, then continue the hand—not refund the losing player.

 

[Machine]

It sounds like only the stub was shuffled not including the muck

After re-reading the OP, I would agree; I recant! Save me, Oprah!
I thought the muck had been shuffled into the deck
This falls to random is random.

My general rule now is we leave it to chatgpt

If you're not joking, that is just ignorance.

 

[ShervinS]

My general rule now is we leave it to chatgpt - it will decide how to proceed. This is what it recommended for this situation:

The hand should stand because only the legitimate undealt cards were reshuffled, which does not change either player’s odds or create a fouled deck. The correct procedure is to stop play, verify the stub, reshuffle and cut it, then continue the hand—not refund the losing player.

I did ask chat gpt, which agreed with people in this thread.

For another ruling a couple of months ago, I also asked chat gpt - which was dead beat wrong.

So yeah, I do use it, but I don’t trust it blindly.

 

[maxim_666666]

Player A should have stopped the hand immediately if it mattered to them. However, once the hand was played out, it was too late. The extra shuffling had no effect on the odds for Player A or Player B.

 

[Gunnar]

The hand stands there is no arguing about that. But if this was discovered before hand has ended it was a fouled deck and dead hand in my opinion.