Cash Game Ruling Help? (1 Viewer)

[CraigT78]

Here is what happened:

Preflop player 1 makes it $6. Player 2 and 3 call.
There is a flop.
Player 1 checks, player 2 checks. Player 3 makes it $15. Player 2 calls, player 1 raises $65 total. Player 3 folds. Player 2 calls.

Dealer then scoops up the the board, the muck, and straightens the cards and sets the deck down to shuffle before players 1 & 2 are like WTF just happened?

Players 1 & 2 cannot recall the exact cards on the flop. Nor can anyone else at the table.

What now?

(Rotating deal, 2am, lots of beer)

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Assuming player 3 didn't raise to $65 and then immediately fold...

This is one of those rare occasions where I would call the hand dead and return bets to all players. There is no possible way to continue the hand under the circumstances. I can see an argument for chopping between the two remaining players (1 & 2?) since there had already been a fold, but I'd probably just unwind everything and deal a new hand.

 

[kaimat]

In my game we would cancel the hand and refund everyone. I get the dealer is at fault, but if two players bet $65 (I assume this is 1/2) and can't remember what the flop was then they own some of the fault, too.

 

[CraigT78]

Assuming player 3 didn't raise to $65 and then immediately fold...

This is one of those rare occasions where I would call the hand dead and return bets to all players. There is no possible way to continue the hand under the circumstances.

Fixed. Sorry I'm slightly hazy today.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Fixed. Sorry I'm slightly hazy today.

Understood. I felt the same yesterday after my beer and poker fest that went until 5am.

 

[CraigT78]

In my game we would cancel the hand and refund everyone. I get the dealer is at fault, but if two players bet $65 (I assume this is 1/2) and can't remember what the flop was then they own some of the fault, too.

Correct. It's $1/$2. The players remembered there was a 7 and an Ah and some other card

 

[DoubleEagle]

With no way to reconstruct the board and the stub potentially fouled, no recourse other than to rule the hand dead and return each player’s bets.

 

[k9dr]

Trick question - this is obviously supposed to be settled by a drinking contest

 

[BGinGA]

Preflop player 1 makes it $6. Player 2 and 3 call.
There is a flop.
Player 1 checks, player 2 checks. Player 3 makes it $15. Player 2 calls, player 1 raises $65 total. Player 3 folds. Player 2 calls.

Dealer then scoops up the the board, the muck, and straightens the cards and sets the deck down to shuffle before players 1 & 2 are like WTF just happened?

What now?

Pot is split between Player 1 and Player 2, and Player 3 kicks dealer squarely in nuts. Next hand.

Although it is tempting to rule the entire hand dead and return all money to the initial players, that's a bit messy -- and unfair -- given that posting of pre-flop blinds, pre-flop betting, and post-flop betting has all occurred before the mishap. The pot amount is correct, it's down to just two players, and instead of getting to see a turn/river/showdown, they're chopping due to dealer error.

 

[phaze12]

Here is what happened:

Preflop player 1 makes it $6. Player 2 and 3 call.
There is a flop.
Player 1 checks, player 2 checks. Player 3 makes it $15. Player 2 calls, player 1 raises $65 total. Player 3 folds. Player 2 calls.

Am I missing something or did player 2 call out of turn?

 

[DoubleEagle]

Pot is split between Player 1 and Player 2, and Player 3 kicks dealer squarely in nuts. Next hand.

Although it is tempting to rule the entire hand dead and return all money to the initial players, that's a bit messy -- and unfair -- given that posting of pre-flop blinds, pre-flop betting, and post-flop betting has all occurred before the mishap. The pot amount is correct, it's down to just two players, and instead of getting to see a turn/river/showdown, they're chopping due to dealer error.

I don’t disagree with your solution for a cash game. However, I believe my ruling is correct for a tourney.

 

[APatHand]

Rock, paper, scissors

 

[moose]

Pot is split between Player 1 and Player 2, and Player 3 kicks dealer squarely in nuts. Next hand.

Although it is tempting to rule the entire hand dead and return all money to the initial players, that's a bit messy -- and unfair -- given that posting of pre-flop blinds, pre-flop betting, and post-flop betting has all occurred before the mishap. The pot amount is correct, it's down to just two players, and instead of getting to see a turn/river/showdown, they're chopping due to dealer error.

this. plus the dealer is the beer bitch for the rest of the evening.

also for the next hour on every flop someone is required to say "hey remember that time when the board got mucked while the hand was still live"

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

I would say roll back action and redo hand, all bets are refunded.

 

[Frogzilla]

Oh man. That sex panther is powerful stuff.

And i would chop it between the two left in the hand. Player 3 entitled to zilch.

 

[CraigT78]

Oh man. That sex panther is powerful stuff.

And i would chop it between the two left in the hand. Player 3 entitled to zilch.

I tried to roll back the action to preflop, gave Marco his $15 but Ben and Peter wouldn't stop arguing about what the board was - Ben knew there was a 7 because he had pocket 7s and Peter know there was 2 hearts because he was drawing. Then Ben starts yelling at me like it was my fault no one was paying attention to Chris. Ended up chopping the pot between Ben and Peter with Marco getting a $15 rebate (only because we were going to redo a flop) then I just killed it. Damn Sex Panther. You guys killed both kegs last night

 

[CraigT78]

say "hey remember that time when the board got mucked while the hand was still live"

This happened about every 15 minutes the rest of the night

 

[BGinGA]

Amusing unrelated side story.....

Playing in the final league event at the Hitching Post last night, and since there was a lot of jostling going on to make the Final 10 in points (advancing to the Championship game), all of the player point totals were posted on a whiteboard off to the side. Every time a player busted, I went up and marked an X by their name to denote that they were no longer in the running.

Player on my right (also named Dave) busts out, I get up to mark off his name, and quickly return to my seat to find NO CHIPS, which had been awarded to the previous pot winner by the non-involved player to my left!! WTF??

Lots of apologies ensued and the proper stacks were eventually returned, but ferchrissakes don't touch chips that don't belong to you, or that you aren't responsible for moving as the dealer. Could have been really ugly, had I not known EXACTLY how many chips I had.

 

[JustinInMN]

How does the dealer get remotely this far in mucking the board.

As soon as the dealer touches the board both players should have been on him.

It's an extension of protecting your own hand to hold the dealer accountable to follow procedure. They deserve what happened to them and should be greatful to get anything out of the pot.

With reconstruction of the board impossible, Bg's solution is probably the fairest to the two players involved. I fully understand WedgeRock's point about a tournament as well. I know Matt Savage answers these questions on Twitter, but I suppose surveillance would fix this issue if it happened in a casino.

 

[justsomedude]

How does the dealer get remotely this far in mucking the board.

As soon as the dealer touches the board both players should have been on him.

2am, lots of beer

 

[CraigT78]

How does the dealer get remotely this far in mucking the board.

As soon as the dealer touches the board both players should have been on him.

It's an extension of protecting your own hand to hold the dealer accountable to follow procedure. They deserve what happened to them and should be greatful to get anything out of the pot.

With reconstruction of the board impossible, Bg's solution is probably the fairest to the two players involved. I fully understand WedgeRock's point about a tournament as well. I know Matt Savage answers these questions on Twitter, but I suppose surveillance would fix this issue if it happened in a casino.

You should come to one of my poker, er, drinking nights. Surprisingly in 4 years of playing regularly - this was the worst mistake that happened.

 

[JustinInMN]

I guess at the risk of sounding to Puritan, I don think I would ever play unless I was sober enough to protect my hand.

The good news is both players probably forgot all about it .

 

[Gobbs]

Could have been really ugly, had I not known EXACTLY how many chips I had.

...and this is why we keep clean, even stacks with extras being “shuffling chips”.

 

[BGinGA]

...and this is why we keep clean, even stacks with extras being “shuffling chips”.

Yep. I had four barrels, shuffling chips, plus one extra. Took three tries for them to get it right.

 

[CraigT78]

I guess at the risk of sounding to Puritan, I don think I would ever play unless I was sober enough to protect my hand.

The good news is both players probably forgot all about it .

Puritan.