Tourney Questions about built in rebuys/addons and bounties (2 Viewers)

markleteenie

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I really like an idea I've seen on here for people buying in with a set amount, let's call it $70 + $10 bounty. You get 1 re-buy built into that initial buy-in. If you get felted, you get a new starting stack. But if you don't get felted by the end of the "re-buy" period, it turns into an add-on.

Let's say this is a T25 base, 25/50 starting blinds, 10K starting stack. So 200bb. I was going to institute on-time attendance and other factors to give a bonus of up to 3-5K.
I also love to run tournaments with bounties as my players enjoy that they can lock up some money even if they end up busting outside of the money.
Every initial buy in will have a $5 bounty. I think the built in "rebuy" will also have a $5 bounty.

Here are the questions:
  1. I think the re-buy should be for the full 10K starting. Is there a good argument for it being higher, since the average stack size has now increased?
  2. Should the add-on also be the full 10k? or something more like 5k? So a survival bonus, but not a full starting stack?
  3. If a player makes it to the end of the rebuy period without rebuying, and therefore they are going get an add-on...what should happen to their second $5 bounty? Should that person simply "win" it and therefore lock up $5? Or does their future knockout now become worth $10? <--This seems like it would be harder to keep track of, unless you used a separate chip, such as a $10 chip or maybe the rebuy chip.
  4. Should the tournament structure be more aggressive, since the amount of tournament chips is guaranteed to increase by 50-100% (depending on the addon amount), since all players will either "rebuy" or "addon"?
Thanks for any advice!
 
I really like an idea I've seen on here for people buying in with a set amount, let's call it $70 + $10 bounty. You get 1 re-buy built into that initial buy-in. If you get felted, you get a new starting stack. But if you don't get felted by the end of the "re-buy" period, it turns into an add-on.

Let's say this is a T25 base, 25/50 starting blinds, 10K starting stack. So 200bb. I was going to institute on-time attendance and other factors to give a bonus of up to 3-5K.
I also love to run tournaments with bounties as my players enjoy that they can lock up some money even if they end up busting outside of the money.
Every initial buy in will have a $5 bounty. I think the built in "rebuy" will also have a $5 bounty.

Here are the questions:
  1. I think the re-buy should be for the full 10K starting. Is there a good argument for it being higher, since the average stack size has now increased?
  2. Should the add-on also be the full 10k? or something more like 5k? So a survival bonus, but not a full starting stack?
  3. If a player makes it to the end of the rebuy period without rebuying, and therefore they are going get an add-on...what should happen to their second $5 bounty? Should that person simply "win" it and therefore lock up $5? Or does their future knockout now become worth $10? <--This seems like it would be harder to keep track of, unless you used a separate chip, such as a $10 chip or maybe the rebuy chip.
  4. Should the tournament structure be more aggressive, since the amount of tournament chips is guaranteed to increase by 50-100% (depending on the addon amount), since all players will either "rebuy" or "addon"?
Thanks for any advice!
1. Same amount
2. Full amount
3. Still in play
4. All depends on how long you want the tourney to run and how many chips will be in play.
 
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Rebuy needs to be the same as starting in my opinion. I have been doing +10% for the addon as an incentive not to use the rebuy, seems to work well.

So for an addon, it would be 11K?

1. Same amount
2. Full amount
3. Still in play
4. All depends on how long you want the tourney to run snd how many chips will be in play.
For 3. Still in play. The people who get the add-on, they should have $10 bounties on their head?
 
So for an addon, it would be 11K?


For 3. Still in play. The people who get the add-on, they should have $10 bounties on their head?

Our re-buys and add-ons are always for the base buy-in, not including any bonuses.

I misunderstood Ques 3. The add-on bounty would stay with the player. You can never lose more than one bounty chip when busting out.
 
Our re-buys and add-ons are always for the base buy-in, not including any bonuses.

I misunderstood Ques 3. The add-on bounty would stay with the player. You can never lose more than one bounty chip when busting out.

Okay, so getting to the end of the "re-buy" period on the first bullet, locks up a $5 rebate in the form of the second bounty chip is how I was leaning.
 
I've seen the bounty question go a couple different ways.

Some hosts play that the bounty is only surrendered after the final bust out. If a player rebuys (whether cost of rebuy is included in buy in or not), then the original bounty chip is not surrendered as the player is still active (kind of strange logic IMO). I guess this works best when there are multiple or unlimited rebuys.

Others play that the bounty is given up any time a player loses all of their chips, and then must buy an additional bounty chip as part of the rebuy cost.
 
I've played in tournaments that have a T50K starting stack and a T50K lammer which the player can use anytime they want up to the first break. If they haven't used it by the break they are forced to used it as an add-on at that time. So you can either keep it until then or cash it in right away and start with T100K or use it if you bust for example. I'm not certain as to what the best strategy is though. I think I lean towards using it right away, but in any case it's a fun alternative to the standard rebuy.
 
Some hosts play that the bounty is only surrendered after the final bust out. If a player rebuys (whether cost of rebuy is included in buy in or not), then the original bounty chip is not surrendered as the player is still active (kind of strange logic IMO). I guess this works best when there are multiple or unlimited rebuys.

This is the way I play because I want everything to be included in the initial buyin. This way no additional payments need to be made and everyone has a bounty until they are officially out of the tournament.
 
"T25 base, 25/50 starting blinds, 10K starting stack."

"I think the re-buy should be for the full 10K starting. Is there a good argument for it being higher, since the average stack size has now increased?"

Since there is no additional $$ cost for the extra chips when a player loses his starting stack, it's not really a re-buy. I prefer using the term 're-load', which converts to an 'add-on' if not used during the re-load period:
  • Starting stack = T10000
  • Re-load stack = T10000 (if starting stack is lost)
  • Add-on stack = either T10000 or T15000 (the latter promotes somewhat tighter play, but it works fine either way)
  • Single bounty chip, surrendered when eliminated (since the re-load stack is pre-paid, it doesn't make sense to require a new bounty chip purchase, since they weren't really felted -- they merely lost half of their total chips)
"Should the tournament structure be more aggressive, since the amount of tournament chips is guaranteed to increase"

Simply plan your event duration as if the starting stacks were 20K (or 25K) total. If wanting to keep the same overall length as a T10k tournament, you'll need to either shorten the blind levels, or inrease the average blind increase amounts (or both) to compensate.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

Second chance tourneys - Yep makes sense.
Reload definitely makes more sense over Rebuy in this situation.
Having the Bounty stay with them and into their reload does make sense. I'll have to think about this some more. I love having a stack of bounties (when I'm playing), so having each player with two each is appealing to me, even though it isn't a true knock out, since it's only 1/2 their stack.

Add-on stack = either T10000 or T15000 (the latter promotes somewhat tighter play, but it works fine either way)
If I went with a smaller add on, such as T5000 or T7000, then that might promote aggression as the ADD ON time approached, since you might get more "bang for your buck" by losing their original starting stack and getting another full T10000 stack. Do you think that is reckless to encourage?
 
We play a T10000 and the rebuys and add-ons are another T10000. It definitely promotes aggression at the end of the rebuy period. If you’re sitting with under T5000 then you’re more likely to shove as either way you’ll end up with more chips.
 
If I went with a smaller add on, such as T5000 or T7000, then that might promote aggression as the ADD ON time approached, since you might get more "bang for your buck" by losing their original starting stack and getting another full T10000 stack. Do you think that is reckless to encourage?
I think it promotes hyper-aggression throughout the entire reload period, and offers too much of a bonus to reckless players. Not a fan.
 
We play a T10000 and the rebuys and add-ons are another T10000. It definitely promotes aggression at the end of the rebuy period. If you’re sitting with under T5000 then you’re more likely to shove as either way you’ll end up with more chips.
So you’re doing both a potential 10k rebuy and a 10k add on?
 
I think it promotes hyper-aggression throughout the entire reload period, and offers too much of a bonus to reckless players. Not a fan.
That’s fair. I was thinking that in a built in second chance element, that people might just nit up to get the 10k added to their existing stack. Even at 1k, obviously 11k > 10k.

In my regular rebuy tourney, there’s usually a bit of small stacks shoving so they can get felted and therefore get the opportunity to rebuy. I don’t allow surrendering a stack for a rebuy.
 
That’s fair. I was thinking that in a built in second chance element, that people might just nit up to get the 10k added to their existing stack. Even at 1k, obviously 11k > 10k.

In my regular rebuy tourney, there’s usually a bit of small stacks shoving so they can get felted and therefore get the opportunity to rebuy. I don’t allow surrendering a stack for a rebuy.
Normally in a Second Chance tournament, each player gets a starting stack and an add-on chip that can be exchanged for the same amount as the starting stack. Players can elect to take the add-on at any time. They can take it right at the start of the tournament or keep it as insurance against a bad beat. If it hasn't been used by a certain designated level, they automatically get the additional chips as an add-on. I have run these several times. Almost everyone in our group holds the the add-on chip in case they run into a bad beat.
 
I feel like the rebuy should be for 10k and the add on if no rebuy should be half starting stack. Ben sometimes runs this scenario in our family game, it works well. I think I would implement the $10 option for add ons without rebuys and play a rebuy chip or a dedicated discernable $10 chip. I'm assuming your playing 20 min rounds? When are you cutting off rebuys add ons? And when are you chipping up? IMO (I could be so wrong) these things should play a factor in if or when you raise the blind structure
 
Quick question - and forgive me if this is hijacking or off-topicking;

What is the purpose of offering the add-on in tournaments, especially 'home' tournaments? I've played in tournaments with add-ons so I know how they work, but what is the theory behind offering them?
 
Quick question - and forgive me if this is hijacking or off-topicking;

What is the purpose of offering the add-on in tournaments, especially 'home' tournaments? I've played in tournaments with add-ons so I know how they work, but what is the theory behind offering them?
More play (i.e. more chips) by making stacks deeper later in the tournament would be my thought.
 
Well, I figured that'd be a result. Just not sure how it is better than starting with deeper stacks or more re-buys. If I'd had more coffee in my stupid head I might have figured it out.

I'm not against it by the way, just curious. Although I did once play in a tournament where the add-on was so large that it sort of neutralized or diminished gains I had made before that point which was very annoying.
 
Just not sure how it is better than starting with deeper stacks or more re-buys.
Deeper starting stacks tend to drastically reduce the number of re-buys in a tournament. Super-deep starting stacks pretty much eliminate them, unless allowed well into the stucture.

Add-ons allow deep stacks (and fewer short stacks) to still be present in the middle stages of a tournament, without the relatively meaninglessness of super-deep stacks at the beginning levels.
 
Quick question - and forgive me if this is hijacking or off-topicking;

What is the purpose of offering the add-on in tournaments, especially 'home' tournaments? I've played in tournaments with add-ons so I know how they work, but what is the theory behind offering them?
Like @BGinGA said, the main reason would be to boost the prize pool. I seldom use them in the tournaments I run but the group I play with likes them. I'm not a fan. I prefer to have sufficient starting stacks for the structure being used so that add-ons are not needed.
 
As everyone has mentioned, a paid add-on helps to inflate the prize pool deep in the tourney for those who need it. Since I'm discussing an upfront reload/addon situation it's really for fun or in this second chance tournament structure.

Now that I see how second chance tournaments are commonly done, would it be too tilting if I called out specific rules that were not "standard"?

I.E. I really want to try this second chance tournament where there are up to 2 bounties per player.

10K Starting stack includes 1 bounty/1 reload
Reload can only be redeemed when starting stack is 0 or a set point in the tournament where they must be redeemed as an addon.
I'd prefer it this way, seems slightly simpler as a player and as TD.

Upon losing starting stack:
surrender 1 bounty chip to the victor
surrender reload chip to TD for a new starting stack that includes a new bounty chip

Upon reaching the end of the time period (~2 hrs in), all reload chips must be redeemed as an addon (which includes a bounty - they basically win for free as a rebate). Rationale - everyone feels better walking away with at least a bounty to cash out. So the more it's spread around, the better. The alternative is to not award a bounty at time of add on but simply roll that "2nd bounty" into the prize pool.

Thoughts, potential issues?
 
Deeper starting stacks tend to drastically reduce the number of re-buys in a tournament. Super-deep starting stacks pretty much eliminate them, unless allowed well into the stucture.

Add-ons allow deep stacks (and fewer short stacks) to still be present in the middle stages of a tournament, without the relatively meaninglessness of super-deep stacks at the beginning levels.

So as a quick follow up; how would you (or anyone else) define "short", "deep" and "super-deep" stacks?.. for the purpose of this discussion..
 

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