Tourney Proper Minimum Raise Sizing Rules Question - No Limit Tournament / Cash. (1 Viewer)

[codeman00]

Hey everyone, I need some help clarifyiing the minimum Raise sizing rules in No Limit Holdem Tournaments. This situation happened at my home game Friday. Let's cover a tournament first!

Blinds are 1000/2000. Post Flop -

Player A bets 2000
Player B raises 2000 more to 4000.
Player C shoves all in for 6300.
Player D calls 6300
Player E now wonders whether he can raise again???

All that I've read notes that Player B's raise is proper (2x the original raise). Player C's raise is proper also since it's over 1x of the original 2000 raise + 300 more. Correct?

Is there anything wrong with Player D's action? I think he can re-raise if he wants? (but he doesn't)
Can Player E reraise to 8000+?

 

[Forty4]

I believe E’s bet would have to be at least 8,600. (2300 more than previous bet as the previous raise was 2300 so that’s the new betting size)

 

[krafticus]

Hey everyone, I need some help clarifyiing the minimum Raise sizing rules in No Limit Holdem Tournaments. This situation happened at my home game Friday. Let's cover a tournament first!

Blinds are 1000/2000. Post Flop -

Player A bets 2000
Player B raises 2000 more to 4000.
Player C shoves all in for 6300.
Player D calls 6300
Player E now wonders whether he can raise again???

All that I've read notes that Player B's raise is proper (2x the original raise). Player C's raise is proper also since it's over 1x of the original 2000 raise + 300 more. Correct?

Is there anything wrong with Player D's action? I think he can re-raise if he wants? (but he doesn't)
Can Player E reraise to 8000+?

If player E hasn't acted yet, he/she can reraise as much as he/she wants. Also, the 6300 raise is a legal raise (as the initial raise was 2000, and this is a 2300 raise). All players with chips remaining have the option of reraising at this point.

Player E's minimum raise would have to be at least 2300 more, for a total of 8600. Of course, if he/she has more, he/she can raise more

Mark

 

[BGinGA]

^ correct. Players E, A, and B all have the right to re-raise at this point when action returns to them (minimum 2300 more on top of the current 6300 bet). Only player D cannot re-raise, unless sombody else re-raises again before action reaches him.

 

[BSteck]

Still a tourney noob here... could you guys run the same scenario with a short-stack shove by Player C?

Blinds are 1000/2000. Post Flop -

Player A bets 2000
Player B raises 2000 more to 4000.
Player C shoves all in for 4300.
Player D calls 4300
Player E now wonders how much he can raise again???

Thanks!

 

[krafticus]

Still a tourney noob here... could you guys run the same scenario with a short-stack shove by Player C?

Blinds are 1000/2000. Post Flop -

Player A bets 2000
Player B raises 2000 more to 4000.
Player C shoves all in for 4300.
Player D calls 4300
Player E now wonders how much he can raise again???

Thanks!

Sure. Player E has still not acted, and can reraise as much as they would like, over the minimum. When action returns to player A, he can also reraise, as he was the original raiser, and had a full raise after his initial action. If he calls, when it gets back to player B, he can either fold, or call the remaining 300.

Mark

 

[codeman00]

Thanks All. Now, is this the exact same ruling in No Limit Cash? Let’s take the zeros off of each for a $1/$2 example.

 

[krafticus]

Thanks All. Now, is this the exact same ruling in No Limit Cash? Let’s take the zeros off of each for a $1/$2 example.

That is correct. Cash/Tournament .. whatever...

 

[Justin Olson]

Sure. Player E has still not acted, and can reraise as much as they would like, over the minimum. When action returns to player A, he can also reraise, as he was the original raiser, and had a full raise after his initial action. If he calls, when it gets back to player B, he can either fold, or call the remaining 300.

Mark

Really? Why did i think that since player C did not raise over 50% of bet that players D,E,A,and B could only call?

 

[codeman00]

Really? Why did i think that since player C did not raise over 50% of bet that players D,E,A,and B could only call?

I read that 50% rule in Roberts rules but that seems to deal with limit poker only?

That being said, I appreciate Roberts rules but damn they need to go re-write it and make it a little less wordy and less complicated.

 

[krafticus]

Really? Why did i think that since player C did not raise over 50% of bet that players D,E,A,and B could only call?

Anyone who has yet to act can do what they like. Player A is in a good spot of player E calls. He can call without the threat of a re-raise.

 

[Mental Nomad]

The one area where you might find exceptions is when someone goes all-in for less than 50% of the minimum raise - there, it may come down to house rules.

Consider this:

A bets 2000.
B raises to 4000.
C goes all-in for 4200.
D calls.
(others fold)
A calls.
Can B raise?

Some places, yes, B can raise, because the 4200 was a raise of 200. Somebody raised B, so B is allowed to raise again.

Other places, no, B can't raise, because the 4200 was not at least 50% of the minimum raise. Nobody raised B with a big enough raise to "count" as a raise.

But players A and D were ALWAYS allowed to raise - only B's right to raise varies by house rules.

This means that when A is deciding whether to call, they better know what the house rules are. If the house plays "<50% is not a raise," then A knows that when they call 4200, B cannot raise. But if the house plays "any raise is a raise," then A knows that when they call 4200, B may still raise again.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Really? Why did i think that since player C did not raise over 50% of bet that players D,E,A,and B could only call?

50% rule only applies to limit poker.

 

[Mental Nomad]

50% rule only applies to limit poker.

Depends on house rules.

Limit poker can also have a rule for "completing the bet."

A: bet 2000
B: raise 4000
C: raise 5100, all-in.
D: call 5100
E: completes the bet to 6000 (this is not a raise)
A: call 6000, total (could have raised)
B: call 6000, total (could have raised)
C: 5100, still all-in
D: <-- has no option to raise! Must call 900 more to stay in, but has no option to raise because their previous be was never raised.

(Again, be aware of house rules. I cannot be convinced that rules around these situation are completely standard everywhere.)

 

[Farcry44]

This has always confused me too, especially in multi all in pots with some of the re-raises not being full raises and when the "doors shut"

 

[BGinGA]

Multiple all-in bets can also sometimes total the minimum raise amount needed to re-open the betting for prior players in the hand (pending house rules).

Example:
A: bet 2000
B: raise 2000 more to 4000 (2000 is minimum raise amount)
C: raise 1100 more to 5100 all-in (2000 more is minimum raise amount unless all-in)
D: call 5100
E: raise 600 more to 5700 all-in (2000 more is minimum raise amount unless all-in)
F: raise 400 more to 6100 all-in (2000 more is minimum raise amount unless all-in)
A: can fold, call 4100 (total of all raises since his bet, 2000+1100+600+400), or raise a minimum of 2100 more up to all-in (or less than 2100 more if all-in)
B: can fold, call 2100 (total of all raises since his raise, 1100+600+400), or raise a minimum of 2100 more up to all-in (or less than 2100 more if all-in)
D: can fold, or call 1000 (total of all raises since his call, 600+400). Most rules will not allow a re-raise here, unless player F's all-in amount was 7100 or more, which would have been a full raise amount over D's 5100 call amount.

Note that had he not been all-in, player F was facing a call amount of 5700, and could have raised anywhere from 2000 more (still the minimum raise amount) making it 7700 to go or up to his entire stack size all-in. But an all-in raise to 7100 would have totaled the 2000 necessary to re-open the action to Player D's 5100 previous call amount. A bit crazy, since if he has exactly 7700 left, he can bet 7700 all-in and totally re-open the betting, but if he has only 7100 left, he can bet 7100 all-in and still opens the action to Players B and D. But if he has only 5999 left, he can bet 5999 all-in and not open the action at all for Players B and C (although Player A still has raise options). Clear as mud, yo.....

 

[saskbull]

i play in a 1-2-5 nl game where the house rule is a short raise kills all raising after. players can only call and then resume normal play on the next street. worst.rule.ever