Poll: the new generation of ceramics should have their own section on PCF (6 Viewers)

[davislane]

Who says they can't? They most certainly do, can, and will. One chip got through last week, and more will get through, but if I'm running PCF I find a way to cover my ass. This appears to be a marketplace for counterfeit chips.

I haven't seen any counterfeit chips on PCF. Ive seen chips that look similar to live casino chips but none that were direct copies. Just because the casino cant tell the difference doesnt mean its a counterfeit.

That being said, keep ordering through Tina and you do you! (not necessarily you) but as long as they print them, there will be a demand. And if the site wants to allow them, hell yeah! I'm just voicing my opinion for the record, no ill will towards anyone.

I would ban live casino chips

Are you referring to replicas or live chips or actual live chips?

and intellectual property molds.

Does that intellectual property cross over to round circles made using a different material and different process?

The biggest losers in this is CPC and RHC values (which I don't care about). But CPC is going to lose significant revenue to these knock offs.

Says who? People love clay chips because of the material not just the mold. The mold may influence prices for some but those people arent interested in ceramic replicas anyway and if by chance they do it certainly wont cheapen the value of clay versions. You can pump out a billion btp ceramics but it wont cheapen the value of the actual clay chips. If you have the 2 side by side any money wasnt an issue everyone is picking the clay version every single time.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

often filled with bumps (somebody has something that’s been bumped 73 times since last December)

If someone would just sell me 16 moAr fathats I promise I'll stop!!!

 

[davislane]

If you want a custom chip, what are your options...CPC (the better version) or Tina (the cheaper).

Sunfly, Abbiatti, Matsui, BrPro, Lange.....other chinese Ceramic makers. Remember Anita?

If there was no Tina, CPC would have less competition, therefore likely more sales?

CPC's competitors are other clay manufacturers. So no one really. You could argue to include TCR offerings or the like and NAGB chips as competition as thats the only way clay chips come to the market.

 

[doublebooyah85]

All good points @davislane! Have to agree with several things you just mentioned...

Several tina chips are counterfeit chips lol. The no mold Aria's chip last week was a counterfeit chip lol.

I would ban live casino chips

I would ban the *reproduction* of live casino chips such as the "Aria's". Hell, maybe even retired casinos...again, if this was my site and my ass.

Does that intellectual property cross over to round circles made using a different material and different process?

Yes, just like the Nike logo on a shoe or a shirt etc, any material, is an infringement.

Sunfly, Abbiatti, Matsui, BrPro, Lange.....other chinese Ceramic makers. Remember Anita?

CPC's competitors are other clay manufacturers. So no one really. You could argue to include TCR offerings or the like and NAGB chips as competition as thats the only way clay chips come to the market.

Valid points, but none of them are now offering the most popular molds of the clay chips.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Sorry to hijack your thread @PocketAces

But this thread is;

Poll: the new generation of ceramics should have their own section on PCF (96 Viewers)​

 

[upNdown]

Precisely why I have such a problem with the faux scrown mold chips.

GPI can go fly a kite re: the MGK mold, however.

It's interesting to me that they're calling it something different (what is it, hat-dash mold?) Like they care about pretending they're not thieves. Or is that name just something a PCFer made up?

 

[improviseallday]

I’ve never purchased a set from CPC, but I will someday. I would like for them to still be in business when I’m ready.

The overlap between the 50c/chip market and the $3/chip market is very small. I suspect if we never found a Chinese ceramic producer, the shoppers would be going to DiscountPokerShop, Apache, and BR Pro.

 

[davislane]

All good points @davislane! Have to agree with several things you just mentioned...

Several tina chips are counterfeit chips lol. The no mold Aria's chip last week was a counterfeit chip lol.

which chip are you referring to? the one that someone cashed? in that instance it was used as counterfeit due to the intent at that time but argue that when they were made it wasnt counterfeit as their intent was a "tribute" of lesser value not to be confused with the original.

"To counterfeit means to imitate something authentic, with the intent to steal, destroy, or replace the original, for use in illegal transactions, or otherwise to deceive individuals into believing that the fake is of equal or greater value than the real thing."

I would ban the *reproduction* of live casino chips such as the "Aria's". Hell, maybe even retired casinos...again, if this was my site and my ass.

that on the assumption that pcf is somehow responsible for the chips being made.

Yes, just like the Nike logo on a shoe or a shirt etc, any material, is an infringement.

that requires them trademarking their logo and going through the process in each respective country and making a product on that medium to enforce the trademark.

Valid points, but none of them are now offering the most popular molds of the clay chips.

I accept this but im still not now buying ceramics because of a replica mold. It maybe the tipping point for some but not most. I get its a slippery slope and one that has already started but I still disagree its taking something away from CPC. The reason people go custom ceramic over custom clay IMO is primarliy due to price and secondary the creative opportunities ceramic has over the clay.

Remember people make /acquire these things to ultimately feel something. We are all addicts to some varying degree looking for a "hit" of some kind.

There is so much nuance to this hobby that it makes it impossible for all of us to agree on anything.

The cream rises to the top.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Translation.
Clay chips >>> Non Clay Chips.
If an individual wants to continue to push the line between tribute and copy especially of live casino chips be my guest, but just dont complain when there is ultimately consequences. Everyone is an adult here and has the right to choose what behaviour they engage in.

 

[Poker Zombie]

that on the assumption that pcf is somehow responsible for the chips being made.

I'm not a lawyer, but lets look at some checkboxes...

• Did the fake chips get sold on PCF
• Were the fake chips designed by a member of PCF
• Did the fake chip sales drive traffic on PCF
• Did PCF make money through said increase of traffic
• Did the seller of the fake chips make a direct payment to PCF as a vendor

Since the answer to all the above is yes, I postulate that it would be an uphill battle to say that PCF was not "somehow responsible" for the chips. PCF profited from them.

 

[davislane]

I'm not a lawyer, but lets look at some checkboxes...

• Did the fake chips get sold on PCF
• Were the fake chips designed by a member of PCF
• Did the fake chip sales drive traffic on PCF
• Did PCF make money through said increase of traffic
• Did the seller of the fake chips make a direct payment to PCF as a vendor

Since the answer to all the above is yes, I postulate that it would be an uphill battle to say that PCF was not "somehow responsible" for the chips. PCF profited from them.

for all the above to be true we need to first settle on a definition on what a "fake" is and isnt and then apply that checklist to which ever chips in are in question of being considered "fake"/"counterfeit"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fake.

 

[ThinkingFold]

I'm not a lawyer, but lets look at some checkboxes...

• Did the fake chips get sold on PCF
• Were the fake chips designed by a member of PCF
• Did the fake chip sales drive traffic on PCF
• Did PCF make money through said increase of traffic
• Did the seller of the fake chips make a direct payment to PCF as a vendor

Since the answer to all the above is yes, I postulate that it would be an uphill battle to say that PCF was not "somehow responsible" for the chips. PCF profited from them.

This is in no way shape or form a gotcha question, but how would these be any different than the Empress Star seconadaries or Royal Princess casino chips? Those both have been around for awhile now and still get sold here and nothing has come of them?

I am honestly still confused how the Boardwalks have vanished from the history books while those two still exist openly?

 

[BGinGA]

I think any sort of copy/tribute from a closed casino should be tagged/flagged/visible to the viewer.

But then it ceases to be a filthy animal.

 

[chippitydoodah]

What if Tina is Skynet?

 

[Santa123]

It makes total sense to divide the Classfields into sub categories to search more easily for what you are looking for.
Personally I think the most sense does make original casino chips/stock chips and custom chips.

 

[MeridianFC]

It makes total sense to divide the Classfields into sub categories to search more easily for what you are looking for.
Personally I think the most sense does make original casino chips/stock chips and custom chips.

With this I agree. Most of the time I’m interested in something specific, even if I’m just browsing.

1. Sets
a. Real Casino
b. Custom/Fantasy/Other

2. Barrels/Racks
a. Real Casino
b. Custom/Fantasy/Other

3. Singles/Collectibles

4. Dealer buttons/Tokens/Etc.

5. Equipment
a. Cases/Racks/Etc.
b. Tables & Chairs
c. Cards
d. Miscellaneous

I guess if you really wanted to balkanize this you could have a material category under each type (I. Clay, II. Ceramic, III. Plastic, IV. Other) but I know for me mostly, I’m either looking at whole sets parts to finish off a set and I’m not really a collector, but if I was, I want that separate too.

 

[chippitydoodah]

It makes total sense to divide the Classfields into sub categories to search more easily for what you are looking for.
Personally I think the most sense does make original casino chips/stock chips and custom chips.

SEARCH all you want by using SEARCH

 

[Santa123]

SEARCH all you want by using SEARCH

Great idea. Wh do we even continue to have categories in that forum like Casino cage, Poker room, Marcetplace Venodors and all these further sub forums. All we need to SEARCH is the SEARCH function.

 

[warma]

The overlap between the 50c/chip market and the $3/chip market is very small. I suspect if we never found a Chinese ceramic producer, the shoppers would be going to DiscountPokerShop, Apache, and BR Pro.

Not all. I only bought a Tina set because it was a super cheap way to test something. Once the test was complete, I sold the set, but was ready to eat the costs or keep it. Wouldn’t have bought the set at 2x cost.

No offense to BRPro and SunFly. In fact, if anything, it’s the opposite. I see them as a higher level of quality. Not totally sure if it’s true, but that’s the impression I have. I feel they’ve differentiated themselves enough that if I want a quality ceramic set that lasts, I go with them.

As for the polling question, do we need a separate composite section? Eh.

There are so many items in the classified that I don’t think it will make an impactful difference anyway. There are so many vague subject lines that I find myself opening way more sets than needed. Heck, I’m guilty… I dropped the cards mold from my add to attract more eyeballs.

I appreciate @BGinGA ’s observation about Tina et al stealing mold designs- I (wrongly) assumed they were open molds. The CHC and small crown mold moves turned me off, but that’s the history of China… the violate IP laws to sell, learn, and get ahead (another topic for another forum). But then again, I doubt she’s stealing much (if any?) business from CPC- many of those are direct replicas of TRK chips with colors you can’t match at CPC and ceramics can’t match CPC.

 

[FestiveKnight]

SEARCH all you want by using SEARCH

Search is useless without appropriate meta data

 

[FestiveKnight]

Where else on the Internet do you go to buy things with no meta data and no ability to filter?

That’s it. That’s the whole discussion. @Tommy and others who know the software well can figure out what is possible technologically and what they want to put effort into setting up.

The rest of the discussion is making a mountain out of a molehill. Notice the title of the thread is not in fact “Do Chinese plastic chips present an existential threat to the very fiber of chipping?” This thread, the the repeated recent discussion in the controversial opinions thread are just the result of the classifieds having increasingly more activity and more variety and that means people will be seeing less of what they want to see.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Great idea. Wh do we even continue to have categories in that forum like Casino cage, Poker room, Marcetplace Venodors and all these further sub forums. All we need to SEARCH is the SEARCH function.

Well if you spell like that in SEARCH you wont find anything

 

[Poker Zombie]

CPC- many of those are direct replicas of TRK chips

Not exactly the same. CPC acquired the old TR King molds from Dennis & Glenn O'Neill.

He made a legitimate purchase from the owners of the mold. Tina just knocked it off and copied it.

 

[Poker Zombie]

This is in no way shape or form a gotcha question, but how would these be any different than the Empress Star seconadaries or Royal Princess casino chips? Those both have been around for awhile now and still get sold here and nothing has come of them?

I am honestly still confused how the Boardwalks have vanished from the history books while those two still exist openly?

It was my understanding that the Borgata gave a cease and desist.
I agree that the ES secondaries ran into some murky waters.
I am unfamiliar with who the RP's had copied - for all my chipping experience, actual casino chips is not my forte.

That really does not help PCF if a casino conglomerate went after PCF for counterfeits. You are only establishing a history of similar attempts to make/sell chips that could pass as the real thing.

 

[BigJackJones]

I understand that Tina (as an example) is not stealing actual CPC customers today, but how long before they figure out how to mass produce a compression lay chip with a proprietary mold for under $.75 a chip?

It’s easy to say they aren’t making a dent with spinner ceramics. Not so easy to say that when they are making compression clays with brass flakes/powder in the mix.

How many of us would buy those?

 

[mipevi]

I understand that Tina (as an example) is not stealing actual CPC customers today, but how long before they figure out how to mass produce a compression lay chip with a proprietary mold for under $.75 a chip?

I'll happily take the over on whatever time you pick.

 

[ekricket]

Not so easy to say that when they are making compression clays with brass flakes/powder in the mix.

How many of us would buy those?

Haha that’s the question china needs answered before they invest in the new equipment.
You are going to have what, like 500 people in the world that will order these initially, then the sales drop to levels that force them to go to retailers at wholesale rates and now your designs are in Walmart and they are the new dice chips.
Which in a couple years there won’t be dice chips for sale by the billions, it will be cards mold for dice chip prices. They’ve got a new product now to sell to an established audience.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Along these lines, maybe keep what’s currently here but just add a High Limit room. Can be $10+ or $5+ per chip depending on the economy.

$5 TINAs? SOLD!

 

[JMC9389]

I understand that Tina (as an example) is not stealing actual CPC customers today, but how long before they figure out how to mass produce a compression lay chip with a proprietary mold for under $.75 a chip?

It’s easy to say they aren’t making a dent with spinner ceramics. Not so easy to say that when they are making compression clays with brass flakes/powder in the mix.

How many of us would buy those?

I would argue that while CPC as a whole will only be minimally affected in the end, though I do think their scrown mold orders are in for a nosedive. At least in terms of new customers. Those with scrown sets are still going to purchase add ons.

 

[ekricket]

I think a lot of people are looking for specific chips to finish sets, and color is most often the criteria they are looking for.
Can we get a “color” section added so we can sort for sale ads by color? Maybe even a “solids” and “spotted” category?

 

[ngmcs8203]

If you want a custom chip, what are your options...CPC (the better version) or Tina (the cheaper).

If there was no Tina, CPC would have less competition, therefore likely more sales?

If there was no Tina I find it difficult to believe that someone would go from getting their feet wet with a $250 purchase straight to a $3k+ purchase.