pocket sixes, good possition

DrStrange

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Playing 1-2 live, seven handed. We are four hours into the session. Lots of big stacks with several big losers and several big winners. Many of the guys are tired, this is not likely to be a long, late session.

Cast of characters:

SB is my DrJekyll/MrHyde villain. Tonight he is Dr. Jekyll but still losing after going for big bucks last session as Mr. Hyde. He has $200 left and looks ready to stack off and go home.

BB is our Crafty Old Lag playing $1,000. He came late, drunk and ready for action. So far he is up $500 and having fun, but he has 36 holes of golf, 400 miles of windshield, a 9:00 court appearance and maybe 12 beers weighing him down. He might be a young 55 years old - but he isn't 25 either.

Crazy sits UTG playing $350. Crazy has been on a roller-coaster tonight (and lost a cooler to hero playing bottom set vs Hero's top set) Maybe not quite as crazy as on other nights, but still a wild man.

MP is a semi-TAGish long term winner playing $300. This has not been his night and he is frustrated and cranky - not handling adversity well after running as hot as the sun for months.

MP2 is a hyperloose calling station. The perfect villain in many ways, but tonight is his night. Playing $1,400 on a $200 buy-in - on his way to book a big win. Notable hand vs Hero - check called bottom set vs Hero's over pair all the way to the river (hero checked behind on the river) not because he was sneaky but because he was afraid Hero held top set just like he did vs Crazy.

CO is a tricky trappy loose-passive with $175. Almost always waits a street to take aggression, so if he bets the turn hard, look at the flop to decide what he ranges. This is not a winning player, but he clearly thinks otherwise.

Hero has the button and a $950 pile of chips. After a rocky start, Hero has come roaring back. Table image is fearsome and way too tight. That does not mean people fold easily, but at least they might consider folding. Hero was caught bluffing twice early on (obviously unsuccessful.)

The hand: Everyone limps to Hero except for MP. Hero has two black sixes, :6s: :6c:. Fold, limp or raise (if raising how much)? Any preliminary thoughts/plans?

DrStrange
 

atomiktoaster

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Raise $10-12 and set mine. I don't want to fold anybody out, I'll fold to a big re-raise, but if I flop the set I want my next bet to look like a c-bet from a hand like AJs. Then we see who wants to stack off.
 

Forty4

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I was thinking along the same lines but maybe less $6-8? Might keep more hands in, and if we hit along with someone hitting the over pair we can look sheepish with the c-bet to get them to raise/jam. But we've also invested very little if we miss.

I actually had that hand a few months ago back to back and played both it so incorrectly it still haunts me. So I'll be curiously following this thread.
 

grandgnu

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I'm fine with checking back. We want a pot that is multi-way for when we hit our hand. I guess I'd be concerned if we re-open the betting we risk getting pushed off our hand by some limp-raiser, given the cast of characters and dynamics you've mentioned.
 

Ben

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Raise, and big enough to make people think twice before calling - $20? You know these guys - I'm fine with $40 if that's what it takes. We have position and almost certainly the best hand - this is not the time to "sweeten the pot" and rely on hitting a set. There are MANY ways we can get value out of this hand without a set and that starts now. If 6 players go to the flop, we ARE going to need that set...
 

atomiktoaster

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I'm fine with checking back. We want a pot that is multi-way for when we hit our hand. I guess I'd be concerned if we re-open the betting we risk getting pushed off our hand by some limp-raiser, given the cast of characters and dynamics you've mentioned.

Limping seems ok. Might make it harder to get the tighter players to stack off. If the villains were feeling fiestier, I might go with that as the first option.

Raise, and big enough to make people think twice before calling - $20? You know these guys - I'm fine with $40 if that's what it takes. We have position and almost certainly the best hand - this is not the time to "sweeten the pot" and rely on hitting a set. There are MANY ways we can get value out of this hand without a set and that starts now. If 6 players go to the flop, we ARE going to need that set...

With this crew, trying to push them into folds seems like a bad idea. Especially if they are ready to get felted and go home. Are you suggesting Hero basically rep KK+ and see how it goes?
 

Ben

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With this crew, trying to push them into folds seems like a bad idea. Especially if they are ready to get felted and go home. Are you suggesting Hero basically rep KK+ and see how it goes?

I'm not sure how making a big raise on the button is "repping" anything in particular, other than a willingness to put a lot of money in the pot. Getting some folds would be nice and if that isn't possible then set-mining is the better play, BUT if Hero just jams here and gets called by all 5 players, I'm still OK with it - we're going to have more than 1/6 of the equity.
 

DrStrange

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Hero would be concerned with a low SPR flop vs a multiway field ( Or for that matter heads up ) holding a small pair. Absent a set, Hero is basically turning his hand into a bluff post flop.

DrStrange
 

Ben

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Absent a set, Hero is basically turning his hand into a bluff post flop.

Heavily disagree. I think on the majority of flops HU (or even 3-handed) Hero can proceed with reasonable confidence that he has the best hand against overcards, and act accordingly. Betting for value/protection with a small to medium pair against overcards (or checking to induce a bluff from same, depending on players) is not "turning his hand into a bluff."
 
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I slightly favor flatting over a small raise, and wouldn't dream of a huge raise (20x was suggested?)

1. If You raise, you open the door to getting 3bet off of the pot. I really don't see calling a 3 bet with this hand.

2. You Would be bloating a pot, and setting yourself up for a difficult decision on the flop. A small pair post flop, while playing as deep as you are, is a nightmare to try to get to showdown cheaply. We're definitely not playing for stacks this deep with one pair.

3. With a call, this is a classic set-mining fit or fold scenario, and can be played with relative ease.

There are merits to a small raise, building a pot while maintaining correct set mining odds is good, especially in position, but with this cast of characters, I think the risk of getting 3bet more than negates the advantages.
 

trever

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I see the merit in making a smallish raise, but I really don't want to open the door for a 3bet. Limp and call a raise
 

Forty4

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I'm just curious which individual most are concerned about 3betting? If it's the small blind he's probably going to pop it next where a small raise might get him to pick a better position to get his money in. From his assessment of the players the two that are most likely to pop it are the SB and CO. To me it sounds like the other will just call. I think I'm most worried that a call will make the SB raise and then everyone calls to the CO who re-raises trying to sandwich out you and the SB who raised and then had callers behind. MP TAG might fold along with SB if we take advantage of raising now. I don't see the CO trying to get crafty with a 3bet if we raise now because we'll have position. However if we let the SB raise he will have position on the SB so the 3bet makes much more effective play, especially if the SB raises to say $15-20 (pot should be $14) and then everyone (save the TAG) calls then CO pots (~$75-$100) there is no way we can call that.

If we raise to $8 SB folds and everyone else probably calls. If we hit our set the pot is $49 and hope there is a big face card on the flop that will call we can make a $15-20 c-bet that makes it look like we don't like the face card and hope they raise us. A lot depends on the flop but I think the raise in position is the most profitable play.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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Normally I would probably just limp in with a small pair like sixes, but we have the button, so lets raise it to $10 and see what happens. If we hit a set, we have position in a semi-bloated pot.
 

kirchhausen

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Hero's reputation helps fend off light 3-bets. Not that it never happens - but when Hero gets 3-bet in this game people mean business.

DrStrange
If that is the case I advocate for a similar raise to what Chippy suggested. $10-$12 bucks is what I would make it.
 

DrStrange

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*** On to the flop ***

Hero raises to $7 - his normal raise when stacks are deep.

SB folds. BB (Crafty LAG), UTG (Crazy) and MP2 (calling station) call, all others fold. $31 in the pot, four way action.

Flop is :6h: :5c: :2h:

Craft leads for $15, Crazy and Calling Station call. Crafty's half pot lead is a blocking or feeler bet most of the time.

Action on Hero. Call, fold or raise? If raising how much?

DrStrange
 

Chippy McChiperson

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Raise to $75. Too many bad cards can come on the turn; any heart, three or four. Hope that Craft Crazy or Calling Station (probably not him) re-raise with 5-4.
 

grandgnu

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*** On to the flop ***

Hero raises to $7 - his normal raise when stacks are deep.

SB folds. BB (Crafty LAG), UTG (Crazy) and MP2 (calling station) call, all others fold. $31 in the pot, four way action.

Flop is :6h: :5c: :2h:

Craft leads for $15, Crazy and Calling Station call. Crafty's half pot lead is a blocking or feeler bet most of the time.

Action on Hero. Call, fold or raise? If raising how much?

DrStrange

We need to raise because there's just too much potential for bad turn cards (straight or flush) to either kill our action against people who might commit now, or to give our opponents their hands without charging them to do so.


Looks like there's $76 in the pot. Hero should raise to between $60-80.
 

atomiktoaster

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Raise, but to $100. You want to get either crafty or calling station to fold here I think. Two draws doesn't feel great to me, but you're probably ahead at this point even with three calls. I suspect the +EV move is the biggest raise you can and still get called/raised by everyone. I'm not sure I'd have the balls for that move.
 

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Making it $80 total sounds about right. Hopefully crafty folds and one of the other two call (maybe both) with their flush draw or 7-8.
 

Forty4

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I SAY, JAM! POT'S BIG ENOUGH TO WIN!

J/K

I've tried to write three times what I'd do but keep changing my answer.

I think we want to isolate and get this to heads up. I don't know that the +EV is to have everyone call as the draw might get there. I think $100-120 because I'm thinking that at least one will call if not two, hell the third will call if the first to do if he's got any piece of the flop. Especially the way you describe all in the first post (Crafty is drunk and having a good time, Crazy is looking to get back the set vs set he lost to you [any chance he's got pocket 5's here?] and a calling station). I almost don't know if there is a bet that will make majority fold. In that case maybe I shouldn't be joking about the quoted post...
 

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The "donkey train" is tough to stop once it starts rolling. I think the two most likely outcomes are: Everyone calls, or if Crafty folds then everyone folds.

DrStrange
 

atomiktoaster

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I love your strategy threads, but the lessons learned with your group probably hurt my game with normal people....
 
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