Pocket Jacks, late possition (2 Viewers)

yeah definitely worst possible turn card other than 8c. i'm 50/50 between check behind and bet small like $30ish.
 
Was going to say bet 2/3 pot on flop. Now bet 1/2 pot turn.

And....

DSC_1126.jpg
 
If we bet we're close to being pot committed. I'd bet $50 min which would only leave us $105 behind. So if crazy shoves can we fold? It'd be hard IMO.

I vote check and evaluate river.
 
I want to check behind but my problem is that if I do I'm folding just about any bet on the river regardless of river card. Even a J doesn't thrill me. Crazy could have 56 just as easily as 87.

Question for the Doc - does Crazy ever go for check-raises with made nut-ish hands? Might be worth firing $25 here to see if he raises. The $25 doesn't pot commit us and he if raises we can get off our hand pretty easily. Might buy us a free river too.
 
Crazy has learned to check-raise in the last year or so. But he often can't control himself when he catches lucky. I'd be surprised to get check-raised by the nuts here.

DrStrange
 
*** And now, the river ***

Hero makes two stacks of chips worth $31 each and bets $62, "$31 for each ace". Crazy whines about it, "You're killing me doc" but calls.

$142 in the pot, effective stacks $93

River: < :kc: :7d: :4c: > :8s: :8h:

Crazy checks one last time. Action on hero, Check or bet? If betting how much?

DrStrange
 
Will crazy call with TT or 99 or some other underpair? Otherwise I'm hard pressed to find a worse had that will call so I'm checking behind
 
Well he is Crazy - - - I have seen him call down hundreds of dollars in bets with queen high (no pair, no draw not even an over card) and it was good. That was quite an explosion when the bluffer loses the monster pot to queen high. <smile>

Normally he doesn't do that but can I predict how bad he could call down with? Nope, he is after all the craziest one of us all?

DrStrange
 
MikesDad said:
Will crazy call with TT or 99 or some other underpair? Otherwise I'm hard pressed to find a worse had that will call so I'm checking behind
Click to expand...

Without a reliable read that we're ahead, I'm checking behind as well.

When I saw the subject line I immediately thought of this video, which I cannot resist posting here just before the results of this hand are revealed.

"
 
This is the most obvious check behind ever with every single player in the world except crazy. Crazy would actually call behind with hands you can beat still.

That being said its hard for me to believe his range is wide enough with as many ways as he has to beat you for you to be getting long term value out of betting here. This smells like a weak king to me against a player who will never fold top pair regardless of kicker.

Check
 
one more for checking behind.

don't love the "you're killing me" comment as it seems to imply that crazy feels that he "has to call" which to me means he has either a king or a flush draw. he's not calling with bricked clubs, he's not folding a king and it seems optimistic to expect even crazy to call someone he perceives as even relatively solid with only a 7.

our value bet would be aimed primarily at 99 and TT and that seems to be too narrow a range for the bet to be profitable.
 
Checking is the correct play I think (still pretty close,) but with exactly $93 behind I'd be AWFULLY hard-pressed not to slide in 3 stacks of $31 with some sort of off-color comment. :oops:
 
*** The end ***

Hero charges forward and bets the tripple $31 - all in baby - all you can eat.

Crazy looks pained, he starts to ask questions:

Crazy "do you really have aces?"
Doc "nope, was just kidding."
Crazy "do you have AK?"
Doc looks back at his cards first, "maybeeeee"
Crazy "do you have an eight?"
Doc "I don't have AN eight"
Crazy "do you have two eights?"
Doc "If I do, I'll show you later"
Crazy "will you show me a card for $20?"
Doc "do I get to pick which one?"
Crazy " I get to pick"
Doc " no way, you'll pick the one I don't want you to see"

Crazy calls.

Hero tables his jacks. Crazy look at them for a while (he loves to slow roll here) but finally mucks.

Hee Haw! -=- DrStrange

PS I think it was a terrible, bad river bet. I was sure Hero was toast when Crazy calls.
 
DrStrange said:
*** The end ***

Hero charges forward and bets the tripple $31 - all in baby - all you can eat.

Crazy looks pained, he starts to ask questions:

Crazy "do you really have aces?"
Doc "nope, was just kidding."
Crazy "do you have AK?"
Doc looks back at his cards first, "maybeeeee"
Crazy "do you have an eight?"
Doc "I don't have AN eight"
Crazy "do you have two eights?"
Doc "If I do, I'll show you later"
Crazy "will you show me a card for $20?"
Doc "do I get to pick which one?"
Crazy " I get to pick"
Doc " no way, you'll pick the one I don't want you to see"

Crazy calls.

Hero tables his jacks. Crazy look at them for a while (he loves to slow roll here) but finally mucks.

Hee Haw! -=- DrStrange

PS I think it was a terrible, bad river bet. I was sure Hero was toast when Crazy calls.
Click to expand...
LMAO, well you got max value
 
DrStrange said:
*** The end ***

Hero charges forward and bets the tripple $31 - all in baby - all you can eat.

Crazy looks pained, he starts to ask questions:

Crazy "do you really have aces?"
Doc "nope, was just kidding."
Crazy "do you have AK?"
Doc looks back at his cards first, "maybeeeee"
Crazy "do you have an eight?"
Doc "I don't have AN eight"
Crazy "do you have two eights?"
Doc "If I do, I'll show you later"
Crazy "will you show me a card for $20?"
Doc "do I get to pick which one?"
Crazy " I get to pick"
Doc " no way, you'll pick the one I don't want you to see"

Crazy calls.

Hero tables his jacks. Crazy look at them for a while (he loves to slow roll here) but finally mucks.

Hee Haw! -=- DrStrange

PS I think it was a terrible, bad river bet. I was sure Hero was toast when Crazy calls.
Click to expand...

What the hell do you think he had? A7?
 
I mean it worked for you, and maybe in this game specific example against crazy this might even be a +ev play. I'd caution against putting this in a strat thread though (maybe we can start a brag beats and variance thread like 2+2) because against random opponents, even crazy LAGtard calling stations, this is probably not even close to +ev.
 
The strategy question for me is wheather Hero should bet the turn vs check turn then bluff catch the river (and maybe to some extent the flop c-bet). I think the bet / bet / check line and the bet / check / check-call line are close.

Checking the turn is good for pot control and to induce a river bluff but it gives a free card to the draws. Betting the turn charges the draws but value-towns Hero when Crazy has any king or better.

Given the diversity of opinion about how to handle the flop and turn, I think there are valid strategy questions until the river bet which is pure spew by Hero. What to do when we flop one over card to our pocket pair has to be one of the more common situations faced by all of us.

DrStrange

PS And I can't say what Crazy had - he is after all, Crazy. 99 / TT / 7x/worse I guess even AQ might be in there.
 
DrStrange said:
The strategy question for me is wheather Hero should bet the turn vs check turn then bluff catch the river (and maybe to some extent the flop c-bet). I think the bet / bet / check line and the bet / check / check-call line are close.

Checking the turn is good for pot control and to induce a river bluff but it gives a free card to the draws. Betting the turn charges the draws but value-towns Hero when Crazy has any king or better.

Given the diversity of opinion about how to handle the flop and turn, I think there are valid strategy questions until the river bet which is pure spew by Hero. What to do when we flop one over card to our pocket pair has to be one of the more common situations faced by all of us.

DrStrange

PS And I can't say what Crazy had - he is after all, Crazy. 99 / TT / 7x/worse I guess even AQ might be in there.
Click to expand...

I enjoyed it and was at the Bet/Check/Check line but don't know Crazy well enough. I had typed a few time but never posted my thoughts on this line but I couldn't hit post because I couldn't figure out how to make it sound logical. I also wasn't sure if Crazy would fire on any river card.
 
I took the river bet avenue. .......fuck it. He is crazy and his range could be anything. Guess I'm the fish at the table. Wouldn't be the first time :)
 
Doc, I actually like your line throughout, including the river shove. I think a lot of times you can get a weak King to lay down here. However, it appears this opponent was willing to stack off without the King, so I suppose against this particular villain the river shove is bad as he is the type who would look you up with K2 off. So against this guy the river shove is bad, but I think in general it's a fine play.
 

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