Pocket Jacks, late possition

DrStrange

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Playing 1-2 live, eight handed. We are very early in the session (maybe 20 hands?) though it already shows signs of volatility. Several of the guys have been away from the table for several months and are suffering poker withdrawals.

Cast of Characters:

Playing $125, the SB is joining us tonight after a couple of months off. He is on a long term losing streak and quite discouraged. Hyper-loose / somewhat passive preflop but the poster child for LAGtard post flop.

Crazy has the big blind and $300 in chips. So far, so good. Crazy has been winning the early hands and is already feeling good. His mortal foe is at the table too (very friendly, but they guy he wants to beat the most).

UTG folds

MP is our classic calling station with $250.

Folds to hero in the CO. Hero is playing $190 on a $200 buy in. At this point in the night all Hero has done is have a few fights over small pots. Nothing notable.

Button is Jekyll / Hyde with $200. So far tonight he is fully in Dr. Jekyll mode. Calculating TAG, rather mechanical and predictable.

Table note - - so early in the session, the table can play a lot more like a 'normal' table than the crazy place it will become later on. This manifests more preflop. No one is likely to call a $25 raise like they might later in the session. Even Crazy is 'moderate' with straddles only $4 and no blind bets.

The hand:

MP limps, action on Hero with the black jacks, :jc: :js:. Dr Jekyll, the SB and Crazy yet to act. Limp, raise or fold? If raising, how much. For what it is worth a typical raise now is in the $7 to $12 range.

DrStrange

PS Somewhere along the way most of you will want to flag Hero for Donkey Play. When you reach that point - say so.
 

atomiktoaster

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Ugh, JJ. Whether or not your raise it now, you're in a bad spot with an overcard on the flop. Limp and hope you can end up with a set. It wouldn't be bad to build some kind of a pot ($40-$80?), but hopefully the two LAGs left to act can do that for you.
 

Forty4

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I think you have to raise, but I'll probably be shown why my thinking is incorrect.
 

MikesDad

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Raise to 12 to try for heads-up with MP. With a 45% chance of an overcard, I'm not letting the others in on the cheap
Flat a raise behind and hope for A J 7 on the flop and profit :)
 

detroitdad

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I think you have to raise, but I'll probably be shown why my thinking is incorrect.


Raise to 12 to try for heads-up with MP. With a 45% chance of an overcard, I'm not letting the others in on the cheap
Flat a raise behind and hope for A J 7 on the flop and profit :)

I also raise. 10-12 bucks.

Forty4, I hit Rochester every thanksgiving :)
 

Ben

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Fold.

J/K, I make it $10. Nice to see ya, JJ. Others may hate you despite being the 5th-best possible starting hand, but I'll be yer huckleberry. :D
 

DrStrange

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*** Ok, easy part done ***

Hero make it $10 to go. Crazy calling, calling station (MP) calls. $31 in the pot. effective stacks $180, SPR = 6

Flop :kc: :7d: :4c:

Two checks to Hero. Bet or check, if betting how much?

DrStrange

No donkey points by my count yet . . . .
 

Ben

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Check - a bet pretty much only folds worse and gets called by better. Not a ton of risk of the worse running us down (unless flush draws which are calling anyway) and we aren't going to play a big pot in this spot regardless. Check behind and evaluate turn card and action - having position is nice. :)
 

jbutler

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we've heard from the doctor previously that crazy calls with literally any pair and any draw (including "pair draws") and calling station has presumably earned his name. bet $20.
 

trever

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Take comfort in knowing that, no matter what you do now it will be wrong and make you look stupid.

You can check, and give away free cards with your weak and vulnerable hand, setting up a tough decision on the turn.

Or

You can bet, get called, and end up with a bloated pot, scary turn and the same two opponents.

I prefer to go down swinging. Bet $25.
 

kirchhausen

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I like the $10 pre-flop raise, exactly what I would have made it. I'd bet ~ 2/3 pot, in the case $20. You have position, let the chasers chase their draws.
 

Trihonda

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I can see both betting $20 and also could find a flat here. Undecided. I guess I would decide based on my table read.
 

Ben

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For those betting, are you going to value-bet a blank turn here as well? Say we bet $20, both villains call (likely,) turn is :9h: and they check to us again. I can see an argument for firing again, but I wouldn't do it. And if I'm not going to do it, I'd rather check here and save my $20 bet on some of the bad turns and/or villains going crazy ahead of me with their monsters that they "checked to the raiser." If they were going to put $20 in bad on the flop, they probably still will on a blank turn.

Against "normal" players, this is a VERY clear check-behind spot. With villains this spewtastic it's a lot closer, but still a check IMO.
 

jbutler

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I can see both betting $20 and also could find a flat here. Undecided. I guess I would decide based on my table read.

it's checked to you so there's no bet to flat.

For those betting, are you going to value-bet a blank turn here as well? Say we bet $20, both villains call (likely,) turn is :9h: and they check to us again. I can see an argument for firing again, but I wouldn't do it. And if I'm not going to do it, I'd rather check here and save my $20 bet on some of the bad turns and/or villains going crazy ahead of me with their monsters that they "checked to the raiser." If they were going to put $20 in bad on the flop, they probably still will on a blank turn.

Against "normal" players, this is a VERY clear check-behind spot. With villains this spewtastic it's a lot closer, but still a check IMO.

in the given scenario, i would bet $45ish on the turn and evaluate the river. in general, where i have calling stations i want to get their money in on the flop and turn when they're still hoping to suck out and make a hand. doing so get value on two streets. since i'll have to check a lot of rivers behind, i'm not getting a second street on the river if i check flop and bet turn.
 

guinness

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Check - a bet pretty much only folds worse and gets called by better.

Why? The board is wetter than teenage sheets and we have crazy and calling station in the hand.

Straights and flushes abound. Against good players I'm leading for $25 and I want callers because the turn and river is going to see mass pressure by me if a hand doesn't complete my opponents (flush, straight). My fears are not the K. I can represent a good or better K but alas crazy and calling station can't lay down any mid K it seems...

Soooooo

I'm still leading out the flop for $25 and paying very close attention to villains.
 

atomiktoaster

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Crazy won't lay down K2o, by my read. He'd be tempted to call with a Q if the picture on the card was exceptionally masculine.
 

jbutler

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yeah, but we're not targeting a king. we're targeting the giant portion of his range that hit a pair or any draw, so we're loving life when we're called. fire away.
 

kirchhausen

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If called I'm firing 2/3 pot again on any non flush or straight turn. So for one caller $45-$50 and two callers $60. Folding to a raise on either flop or turn.
 
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