Play this Omaha hi-lo WSOP circuit event hand with me (1 Viewer)

RainmanTrail

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Since I had so much fun posting my stud hi hand from the WSOP HORSE event last week, I thought I'd replay another mixed game hand from the past.

I was playing in a WSOP circuit event in San Diego several years back when this hand went down. It was a limit Omaha hi-lo event. We are several hours into the tournament and I've been at the same table all day. A few players are just now starting to bust out, but most everyone at my table has been there all day as well. I feel like I have a pretty solid read on everyone at this point. I know who plays anything and everything, who plays ultra tight, and who plays ABC poker. Mostly just casual players who were there to have a good time. Nobody at my table would have had a snowball's chance in hell at ever beating a rake.

I have about 30BB to start the hand. Villain has about 20BB, and the other players involved probably had about 15BB or so.

I'm sitting in the 9 seat and I'm in the big blind. 1k - 2k limits.

UTG and UTG+1 both fold. Old man coffee in seat 3 calls (which he did far too often). Seat 5 (a super nit who never raises, even with premium hands) calls, as does the donkey in seat 7 on the button, who 30 minutes prior accidentally dragged half a pot with his :7x::3x: low after thinking he had made a straight (he did not). Small blind folds (probably incorrectly, as he failed to pick up :ah::as::2s::3h:).

I look down at
:kd::kh::8c::3s:

I check (because raising here is beyond terrible) and we see a 4-way flop.

Flop comes
:ks::5d::5s:

Hero... ?
 
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DrStrange

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Hero must bet. On the high side, hero hopes to get paid by anyone with a five in their hand. It is so shallow that a flush draw might also call the bet.

The low side is where giving a free card is a crime. Hero might not fear the runner - runner low draw but a free shot at the first half of the draw is unacceptable.

Hero might get three folds. But limit poker style makes calling a small bet pretty easy. The odds are already pretty sweet.

Bet and lope -=- DrStrange
 

JMC9389

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I feel the cooler coming from here.

I'll take a guess and say the board runs out Ace, deuce, and hero gets quartered to the low and loses the high to quad 5's:wtf:

Anyway, no need to slowplay out of position especially with needing runner runner for half the pot. Bet out to start.
 

FDLmold

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Bet. This one's easy. Not that our opponents are paying attention, but a bet from early position could look like a 5 to them. Maybe K5. We have second nuts with KK and are lucky to be near the top of our range. Nice flop. The hand is set in stone for us. We have literally one card that could improve us. Unfortunately there are a whole bunch that help opponents who stick around, which sucks.
 

MrCatPants

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Slow play is death in omaha, particularly hi-lo. Bet. Given it's limit you will probably drag along any hand with a 5, AA if it's out there, and potentially flush draws.
 

Frogzilla

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The first decision (checking or leading) might be the only decision for the whole hand, hard to think of a runout I wouldn’t bet/raisez Double paired 5 seems fine to have leading range in theory but I’ve never studied the spot. If you read them as passive, go with that, lead
 

Saoliver

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Must bet. Easiest decision of your life. Unless you are certain that you can check-raise. :cool
 

RainmanTrail

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My default in Omaha hi-lo is to pretty much never slow play big hands if a low card is on board. Especially if the other players at the table are good. However, there are a few spots where I will occasionally mix in some slow-played hands, and in this particular hand, I chose to gamble and go for the check-raise. The likelihood that a runner-runner low hits the board here is ~33%. So I'm risking giving up half of the 4.5BB pot 1/3 of the time by checking. However, in this game, only one of the 3 other players would have folded a naked backdoor low draw (the nit in seat 5), so I'm really not giving up that equity. I'm risking giving up the equity from my flop bets that they otherwise would have incorrectly called. Two of them would have incorrectly called a bet with a hand like A2 or even A3 had I led out on the flop (OMC and the donkey). Also, all 3 players would have bet if they had a 5 in their hand, which collectively, they were about a coinflip to have had (a frequentist statistician would say there was a 42% probability that one of them held a 5, whereas a Bayesian statistician would correctly point out that the odds are higher since there is a pre-flop selection bias toward wheel cards that make players who see flops more likely to hold them than those who don't). I was also convinced that the donkey on the button would fire at the pot if checked to (as he had done this multiple times before), but that he would fold if he had nothing in the event that I led out from the big blind. Also, I didn't think anyone would raise me on this flop, but they'd certainly bet if they had a 5 in their hand. So I decided to go for the check-raise here, because I know I would have gotten paid off if they had any part of that board. Also, there is quite a bit of value to be added if one of them has a pocket pair that hits on the turn, as that probably would have resulted in 4 big bets (or 8 big blinds) going into the pot, whereas they would otherwise just fold hands like :qd::qc::2c::6c: or :td::ts::jd::jh: here to a leadout bet.

Cliff notes: if they were any good at all, I would have just led out. But I decided to get cute and go for the check-raise because they sucked.

Pre-flop:
3 limpers, I check my option from the big blind with:
:kd::kh::8c::3s:

Flop:
:ks::5d::5s:

I check, OMC checks, nit checks, donkey checks on the button. Shit! Bad read by hero... I really thought the donkey would try to steal the pot here. He had done so numerous times before. Perhaps 4 handed with a paired wheel card on board just looked too suspicious to him.

Turn:
:ks::5d::5s::9s:

Hero...?
 

Jimulacrum

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Don't like going for the check-raise without some specific indication someone would bet in a position that lets you rope the field for 2 bets. You know your opponents are generally passive and a little loose. Against this lineup, you should be disproportionately betting out.

Anyway, as played, bet the turn. Fortunately, the way the flop went down should leave enough ambiguity to get a bet or two out of someone with a 5 or a flush.
 

RainmanTrail

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Pre-flop:
3 limpers, I check my option from the big blind with:
:kd::kh::8c::3s:

Flop:
:ks::5d::5s:

I check, OMC checks, nit checks, donkey checks on the button.

Turn:
:ks::5d::5s::9s:

Hero...?

This is probably the best turn I could hope for. It brings the flush and eliminates the possibility of a low. My only focus at this point is to extract the maximum amount of chips from my opponents as possible. My read on the other players is that nobody has a 5. They would have bet the flop if so. On this turn, OMC and the nit would both bet larger flushes here but may check back a baby flush if checked to. The donkey would bet with any flush. However, none of them are raising with a flush if I bet into them. OMC and the nit in seat 5 would both correctly fold a small flush to a bet here. The only other hand that could pay me off would be 99. But if someone has that, then a raising war would ensue either way. How many bets would go in would depend on which opponent had it. None of them are calling with a wrap draw hand like :9c::tc::jd::qs:. There is almost no upside to me betting this turn. They either have a flush or they don't. If they do, I'll be able to get a check-raise in the majority of the time, and I'll get paid off. And the flushes that are too weak to bet by OMC and the nit aren't paying me off anyhow. They'll just fold. The pot is too small.

As played, I checked the turn. I believe this is the only correct play here given my read on my opponents and the player types I'm up against. I think betting here would be a mistake.

OMC checks. Nit checks. Donkey checks.

River:
:ks::5d::5s::9s::jh:

Hero...?
 

FDLmold

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Was not quick enough to put in my two cents about maybe checking the turn. I will lol if somebody slow played 55. Right now it is time to bet.
 

MrCatPants

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You have to bet here. Ultimately the flush getting brought in on the turn does help, but eliminating the chance at a low severely limits those who can call future bets. People drawing for half the pot in this game is a good thing as, with only one card left its more likely they will miss than hit. Our opportunities for value are really limited now.

We have to bet here and hope someone sticky has a 5 or spiked Jacks full on the river.
 

mack10man

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I like checking the flop. You give someone a chance with 6‘s 7’s 8’s 9’s 10’s jacks and queens to make a lesser full house, also you give them the chance to make a flush. The only cards you don’t want to see on the turn is a five or ace. The odds of a runner runner low coming in are less than 30 percent.
 

Jimulacrum

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OMFG, Hero is fired and not eligible for rehire.

New guy's first order of business:

1656738805910.png


Be pretty funny if the OMC to your left is sitting on quads and trying to do the same silly thing you're doing.
 

RainmanTrail

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Pre-flop:
3 limpers, I check my option from the big blind with:
:kd::kh::8c::3s:

Flop:
:ks::5d::5s:

I check, OMC checks, nit checks, donkey checks on the button.

Turn:
:ks::5d::5s::9s:

Hero checks
OMC checks. Nit checks. Donkey checks.

River:
:ks::5d::5s::9s::jh:

Hero bets
OMC raises. Nit folds. Donkey folds.
Hero 3bets
OMC 4bets
Hero...?
 

Jimulacrum

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Pre-flop:
3 limpers, I check my option from the big blind with:
:kd::kh::8c::3s:

Flop:
:ks::5d::5s:

I check, OMC checks, nit checks, donkey checks on the button.

Turn:
:ks::5d::5s::9s:

Hero checks
OMC checks. Nit checks. Donkey checks.

River:
:ks::5d::5s::9s::jh:

Hero bets
OMC raises. Nit folds. Donkey folds.
Hero 3bets
OMC 4bets
Hero...?
Knew it. Crying call? He has quads.
 

RainmanTrail

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Knew it. Crying call? He has quads.

I think it's pretty safe to say he's not going to reraise us here with a small full house. J5 and 95 are definitely out of the question. There are 3 combos of JJ, 3 combos of 99, 2 K5 combos, and one quad 5555 combo. When I 3-bet him, I was convinced he had just spiked the Jack with JJs full. But I hate the 4-bet obviously. There are now 18.5BB in the pot and we're getting just over 9 to 1 on a call. One of the more intriguing quirks of playing limit poker. You can't really bet someone off a big hand for just one more bet.

Also, this is California, so we still have the option to raise again. Is anyone raising again here? Or just calling? Anyone really considering actually folding KK here? It's one thing to say, "fuck, I think he has quads". But it's another thing to actually fold KK on a K559J board to one more bet on the river in limit poker getting over 9 to 1 on your call.
 

Jimulacrum

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Is anyone raising again here? Or just calling? Anyone really considering actually folding KK here?
Never folding here.

The option to make it 5 bets is interesting. If you're ever going to use it against Nitty McCoffee, it'll be a spot like this, where you've dramatically underrepresented your hand and it's not unrealistic for him to think JJ is the nuts.

But 4 bets from a nit is 4 bets from a nit. Feels pretty nutty to me.
 

kirchhausen

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Pre-flop:
3 limpers, I check my option from the big blind with:
:kd::kh::8c::3s:

Flop:
:ks::5d::5s:

I check, OMC checks, nit checks, donkey checks on the button.

Turn:
:ks::5d::5s::9s:

Hero checks
OMC checks. Nit checks. Donkey checks.

River:
:ks::5d::5s::9s::jh:

Hero bets
OMC raises. Nit folds. Donkey folds.
Hero 3bets
OMC 4bets
Hero...?
Call
 

Venturalvn

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Never folding here.

The option to make it 5 bets is interesting. If you're ever going to use it against Nitty McCoffee, it'll be a spot like this, where you've dramatically underrepresented your hand and it's not unrealistic for him to think JJ is the nuts.

But 4 bets from a nit is 4 bets from a nit. Feels pretty nutty to me.
This right here. There are no folds, and if you ever have a gotcha moment against OMC it's exactly this layout. As much as OMC are nits, they also tend to grip and rip with premium non nuts - we see this all the time in NLHE where they get married to aces late in a hand and then huff and gruff as they get raked by an obvious nut.

You're underrepresented to holy hell, and JJ makes as much sense as 55 here. Therefore, raising and calling is a flip.
 

Jimulacrum

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If you call and he shows 55, you gotta mumble something about thinking your straight was good as you muck.

Actually, do they allow you to muck at showdown in this tourney or nah?
 

RainmanTrail

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By this point, it should be obvious that this is why I posted the hand. Clearly, this is an otherwise "meh" type hand that we've all seen numerous times before. But the question I'm interested in is whether or not anyone else ever folds in this spot.

After OMC 4-bet, I went into the tank to replay all the hands I had seen him turn over up to that point. I know that for nearly everyone, this is just an easy call & hope spot, and some will even throw out another raise. But I had been playing with this guy all day long. He was truly "old man coffee". He was a septuagenarian that had only raised maybe 2 or 3 times all day, and that's because he had nut nut. There were a few hands where he had nut low and a baby flush or nut low and a straight on a paired board but didn't raise. He would bet those hands if checked to, but he wouldn't raise them in a multiway pot. Ultimately, I came to the determination that even getting 9.25 to 1 on my call just wasn't enough. I was as certain as I could possibly be that he is never putting in the 4 bet raise here with :jx::jx: or worse. He was doing the same thing I was. He had to be slow playing quads.

So... I folded. But my ego convinced me that a fold of this magnitude must be done face up :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: So, I toss my :kd::kh: in face up and say, "nice hand".

What happened next though, I did not anticipate. Absolute chaos ensued. The player across from me exclaims, "he raised!", thinking I hadn't completed my action yet and that I didn't realize I had been raised again. Another player repeats it "ya, he raised". I responded, "yes, I realize that. I'm folding. Kings full is no good here. He has quad 5s". The dealer questions me. "You're folding??!!" Again, I respond with, "yes. That's a fold. I'm folding kings full". Then, the donkey on the button decides that this fold just doesn't sit right with him, and he accuses me of cheating/chip dumping. He says, "there's no way anyone folds that. Are you chip dumping? Do you guys know each other or something?" Half the table chimes in now. "ya, that's fucked up", and "ya, it does feel a bit like chip dumping".

It felt exactly like that scene in Rounders at the cop game where The Worm gets caught dealing off the bottom of the deck lol. Now, I have to defend myself. I start arguing with the donkey who is accusing me of cheating. I say, "if I was chip dumping, why would I show my hand? Why wouldn't I just muck?" It gets nowhere with him, as logic clearly isn't his bag. Next, he starts calling me an idiot, telling me that I folded a winner, etc. Dealer is trying to calm the table down. Everyone has something to say at this point. Players from nearby tables start coming over to see what all the commotion is about. The floorman gets called and the dealer explains that I'm being accused of chip dumping. He starts to replay the action to the floorman whose facial expression screams, "ya, that seems a little suspect to me too" after the dealer shows him what I folded (all the cards are still in the middle at this point. The pot hasn't been pushed yet). I explain to them that I have no idea who this old guy is and that I'm just folding a hand because I know I'm beat. I offer everyone at the table, including the floorman to side bet me if they think I folded a winner (assuming OMC would show, which he doesn't have to obviously). Floorman shuts it down, "no, no no. No side bets allowed".

OMC decides he's had enough and says, "I'll show it", as he turns over the :5c::5h: for quads. The table goes silent. The rail goes nuts. "That's the sickest fold I've ever seen in my life!" and "What the fuck just happened?" are heard behind me. Everyone had something to say about it for the entire rest of the tournament. Every time I got moved to a new table after that, the players were still talking about it. Even the dealers were retelling the hand as they all heard about it from my dealer at the break. "Did you hear about that hand earlier? Some guy folded KK on a K559J board earlier because he thought the other guy had quads". "Bullshit. Nobody folds that." Dealer chimes in, "no, it's true. The dealer who dealt it told me about it at the break. He saw it happen. The guy folded it face up." I respond, "ya, that was me. I folded it. He had quads." This same conversation repeated itself about 3 more times. Every single table break until the final table.

OMC would later ask me during one of the breaks how I knew he had quads. He thought he must have had some sort of a tell or something. I told him he just doesn't raise enough and that it makes him too predictable.

I've discussed this hand quite a few times over the years with value poker friends. Everyone thinks I'm nuts and that it was a bad fold, and that I just got lucky and am being results oriented.

I disagree. I'm not a tight player. I've called people down with J high because I put them on a T9 open ender that didn't get there (and won). I play the player. When I'm confident in my read, I will lay down huge hands in the right spots. This was one of those spots.

I went on to win the tournament. But I didn't get a circuit event ring because they didn't give out rings for the non-holdem events back then. Mixed games don't get enough love from the poker world.

https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=66776
 

Jimulacrum

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I've discussed this hand quite a few times over the years with value poker friends. Everyone thinks I'm nuts and that it was a bad fold, and that I just got lucky and am being results oriented.

I disagree. I'm not a tight player. I've called people down with J high because I put them on a T9 open ender that didn't get there (and won). I play the player. When I'm confident in my read, I will lay down huge hands in the right spots. This was one of those spots.
Nice fold. And though it's nice to get that vindication after a big fold, you had the logic to support the play. It's crazy logic and a bet most players never expect to save, but there it is.

Not sure why someone would think you'd show kings full and make a big spectacle when you're trying to quietly chip-dump with the other guy. People will make up anything.

I'm not sure I've ever been confident enough in someone's nittiness and betting habits that I'd turn down 9.25 : 1 with kings full here, but I can see the logic. I've folded a lot of big hands because P(nit reraises without the nuts) = 0%. Some players are just that predictable. But I feel like I'd still want to hedge my bet on that slim of a margin. Every once in a while, a nit misreads his hand.

Your biggest mistake was showing it. Gain 1,000 ego points but lose 1,000 poker points for showing the nit one of his biggest leaks. Now he might start raising with the second nuts once in a while to balance himself out. (Just kidding, never happening.)
 

RainmanTrail

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Your biggest mistake was showing it. Gain 1,000 ego points but lose 1,000 poker points for showing the nit one of his biggest leaks.

Poker is curious beast. It's funny because after that hand, people started trying to run bluffs against me, unsuccessfully. I'm convinced that a big part of why I went on to win that event was because of the reputation I gained after making that fold. Everyone thought I was an easy target. I picked up so many extra bets that I never would have gotten had I not shown that fold.
 

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