Tourney Penalty-Free Late Registration (1 Viewer)

[Jimulacrum]

The situation: A low-stakes Hold'em freezeout. Home-game setting. Cards fly at 12:00, but players may buy in at any time between 12:00 and 12:30. Late entries receive the exact same stack as on-time entries; they do not pay a penalty, lose a bonus, or have chips blinded away in their absence.

The question: A player arrives at 12:05. The game is already underway. If the player wants to play, must he buy in right at that moment, or can he choose to wait until any time he prefers, up until 12:29:59?

Inspired by a situation of @Schmendr1ck's making.

 

[Jonesey07]

Are you allowing late reg up until a set point or just making an exception for a late arrival?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'd also like to consider more nuanced points that don't fit neatly in a poll.

Does it change your decision if the player is waiting to buy in for a frivolous reason (e.g., wants to go smoke a joint)?

What if the reason is calculated (e.g., he's specifically avoiding the blinds or trying to leave a table shorter-handed so people bust faster)?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Are you allowing late reg up until a set point or just making an exception for a late arrival?

Assume I mean allowing late reg until 12:30.

The distinction is thin, though. If you're allowing late reg at all, you should be allowing it for everyone as a matter of policy. Allowing individualized exceptions for late arrivals would be egregiously unfair IMO.

 

[Jonesey07]

Assume I mean allowing late reg until 12:30.

The distinction is thin, though. If you're allowing late reg at all, you should be allowing it for everyone as a matter of policy. Allowing individualized exceptions for late arrivals would be egregiously unfair IMO.

I am of the opinion if you are offering late reg it is up to the player to decide when to buy in no matter what reasons they have.

 

[improviseallday]

A few factors to consider:

- How disruptive is late entry?
- Are people trying to extract EV from the late reg?

If it's "not very" and "not likely", then there's no need for a penalty.

If it's "very" or "Bob checks the leaderboard at 12:25 before deciding whether to register", then yes, use some penalty.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Whatever is easiest on the host. Im not having you walk around my basement glancing at chip stacks and wall art until you're 'ready', sit down and play. You want it your way, go to Burger King.

 

[Jimulacrum]

A few factors to consider:

- How disruptive is late entry?
- Are people trying to extract EV from the late reg?

If it's "not very" and "not likely", then there's no need for a penalty.

If it's "very" or "Bob checks the leaderboard at 12:25 before deciding whether to register", then yes, use some penalty.

This is the kind of case I'm trying to pinpoint. Exploitability is my main concern when it comes to poker rules.

What do you mean by "use some penalty"?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Whatever is easiest on the host. Im not having you walk around my basement glancing at chip stacks and wall art until you're 'ready', sit down and play. You want it your way, go to Burger King.

I'm leaning this way myself. It's bad for the game and disrespectful to the players and the TD to allow this, but it's tough because the rule is the rule, and he's technically following it.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I'm leaning this way myself. It's bad for the game and disrespectful to the players and the TD to allow this, but it's tough because the rule is the rule, and he's technically following it.

Up to host as always, but my game is for competitive fun. Id say sure that's the rule, and make a mental note not to invite him back/slap him on the second tier of invites.

Disrespect is the word for it. At a casino? Absolutely. But in some home game, youre a guest in someone's house and the late reg is because people have lives and shit happens, not some type of edge. Plus if everyone sees the asshole doing it, now you have 5 guys (widdout the fries) showing up late thinking they're Hellmuth.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Up to host as always, but my game is for competitive fun. Id say sure that's the rule, and make a mental note not to invite him back/slap him on the second tier of invites.

Disrespect is the word for it. At a casino? Absolutely. But in some home game, youre a guest in someone's house and the late reg is because people have lives and shit happens, not some type of edge. Plus if everyone sees the asshole doing it, now you have 5 guys (widdout the fries) showing up late thinking they're Hellmuth.

At a casino, it's practically mandatory to exploit late reg if you're serious about winning. Those are the rules and your job is to do the best you can within the rules.

In fact, you can exploit it even better in a casino than in a home game because you can show up, watch it play out until 12:29, and then decide whether or not to play at all. Do that at a home game and you're probably coming off the invite list before the tournament is even over.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

At a casino, it's practically mandatory to exploit late reg if you're serious about winning. Those are the rules and your job is to do the best you can within the rules.

In fact, you can exploit it even better in a casino than in a home game because you can show up, watch it play out until 12:29, and then decide whether or not to play at all. Do that at a home game and you're probably coming off the invite list before the tournament is even over.

Thats my point, sorry if that wasnt clear.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I am of the opinion if you are offering late reg it is up to the player to decide when to buy in no matter what reasons they have.

Fair enough.

Is this something you'd tolerate if the player does it every time he shows up?

I updated the post to specify that it's a home game, just so that's clear.

 

[upNdown]

I don’t like choosing the second option, but it’s the only one that makes sense.
What if he gets there at 12:05 and doesn’t want to jump right in, but you require him to.
Can he say hold on, let me smoke a butt first?
Suppose his mother calls him while he’s outside, and that takes 10 minutes.
And when he gets back in, he’s got to hit the bathroom.
Then when he’s washed up, it’s 12:29.

In a perfect world, but n the small home environment that I think you’re describing, I’d like to think everybody would respect the host’s wishes and sit down asap. But I think as soon as you create a late reg rule, you’re stuck with people exploiting it.

And fwiw, issues like this are why I (a tournament lover) only host cash.

 

[improviseallday]

This is the kind of case I'm trying to pinpoint. Exploitability is my main concern when it comes to poker rules.

What do you mean by "use some penalty"?

I recommend reading through the threads on late entry EV on TwoPlusTwo. So far, I think the consensus is that it's -EV as a winning player to enter late because you miss the early round opportunities, and the only "angles" are if a player is better at short stack or they are checking the leaderboard.

I see you've excluded the on time bonus and blinding out. A non-EV penalty might work depending on the mood of the game. Make them wear a silly hat or take a shot.

 

[200 Motels]

As soon as you know that they're playing, their stack is in play, even if they haven't paid yet. That's how it seems to work in our local bar games. They can't keep their stack out of play intentionally.

If someone calls ahead and says they'll be 15 min late, we put a stack in pay for them. If they don't show up, no big deal. There's a few extra chips in play after removing their stack.

 

[improviseallday]

As soon as you know that they're playing, their stack is in play, even if they haven't paid yet. That's how it seems to work in our local bar games. They can't keep their stack out of play intentionally.

If someone calls ahead and says they'll be 15 min late, we put a stack in pay for them. If they don't show up, no big deal. There's a few extra chips in play after removing their stack.

This incentivizes them not to tell you that they're late, or to tell you later than they would have.

 

[CraigT78]

If you are in the poker room, you're buying in now or not at all.

Screw these home game players who think they are getting some kind of edge by skirting the rules.

You want a 12:29 buy in, but are here at 12:05 - don't enter the poker room and risk our clocks not matching, because 12:30:01 buy-in closed.

 

[wickedwonka121]

I think you have to guage the intent of the late registration and the feeling of the other players. If it's causing an issue with them I would put a stop to it. It's all about having fun, so negative vibes get axed asap. We don't allow late registration in our tournaments. If you can make it but you're late, we can wait for you for a few minutes, just as a courtesy, or we start blinding your stack until you arrive to defend it. We wouldn't let anyone wait to buy, even with rebuys, it has to happen right away. In or out, no in between.

 

[Nymor]

What if the reason is calculated (e.g., he's specifically avoiding the blinds or trying to leave a table shorter-handed so people bust faster)?

I suppose he would be avoiding blinds but he's missing a load of hands as well.

I have always been under the impression that purposeful late reg is not a good strategy - either you may be buying in for less big blinds than others (if blinds increase) or you'll be buying in for less than the average stack if anyone is knocked out.

What advantage does late reg offer?

 

[upNdown]

We wouldn't let anyone wait to buy, even with rebuys, it has to happen right away. In or out, no in between.

And you’ve just mentioned the only reason I ever wanted to register late - rebuys.
I used to play in a freezout that changed to a rebuy. I didn’t want to rebuy and I didn’t want to change my style of play, so I just started buying in late.
That was a big MTT, different from the home game being pondered here. But i guess one takeaway is that different people like to play differently. The host needs to decide whether he wants to accommodate that.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I have always been under the impression that purposeful late reg is not a good strategy - either you may be buying in for less big blinds than others (if blinds increase) or you'll be buying in for less than the average stack if anyone is knocked out.

What advantage does late reg offer?

I mean this affectionately, that impression is wrong. Yes, you have less big blinds but your chips are worth more. You're hoping that people are knocked out.

Below is just the first article I saw, but theres a reason many poker pros do it.

https://blog.gtowizard.com/the-icm-...a way,through inactivity in poker tournaments.

 

[wickedwonka121]

I mean this affectionately, that impression is wrong. Yes, you have less big blinds but your chips are worth more. You're hoping that people are knocked out.

Below is just the first article I saw, but theres a reason many poker pros do it.

https://blog.gtowizard.com/the-icm-benefits-of-late-registration-in-poker-tournaments/#:~:text=Late registration is a way,through inactivity in poker tournaments.

This reads like it's trying to make some connection between risk and reward. I say the article is interesting but lacking. It's hard to put a price on information. Watching how others play goes a long way. Tournaments I have sat in on are hard to compete in if you aren't growing your stack every half hour. I think a late registration adds more gambling. That is to get over the hump of being short stack in the first hour. If you can do that, I agree with the rise in equity from the late entry.

Relating this back to the home game. If the late registration knows how you play, they are ahead everytime.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I'm not sure I remember the exact situation that may have inspired this, though I do recall a number of adjustments that my long-time tourney group made over the years to accommodate late arrivals. Let's see if I'm consistent with what I may have said in the past:

I'm fine with the player waiting until he's ready. Even in a turbo-ish weeknight home tourney, half an hour late won't confer much of an advantage. Also, I don't want to be forced to draw an arbitrary line between "arrived five minutes late and had to take a dump/have a smoke first," "arrived five minutes late and felt like waiting," or "arrived 25 minutes late."

As long as your butt is in a seat with purchased chips in front of you when the clock strikes 12:30, I'm good.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This reads like it's trying to make some connection between risk and reward. I say the article is interesting but lacking. It's hard to put a price on information. Watching how others play goes a long way. Tournaments I have sat in on are hard to compete in if you aren't growing your stack every half hour. I think a late registration adds more gambling. That is to get over the hump of being short stack in the first hour. If you can do that, I agree with the rise in equity from the late entry.

Relating this back to the home game. If the late registration knows how you play, they are ahead everytime.

Fair; I'll be honest and say I didnt dive too far into the article, but ICM deals with reward, right? Didnt read this specific article closely, just the math.

A late registration adds more gambling than actual gambling? That I can't accept lol. Personally I have an edge over the apes I play with but at a big tournament I dont bet on my hand reading edge over the ICM edge, guess it depends on the tournament and the situation.

I get you. Im not gonna late reg cause I dont play professionally and Im willing to give up that edge to play longer and enjoy it, but Im not doubting the calculus that goes into many pros choosing to late reg all kinds of tourneys.

 

[Jimulacrum]

In a perfect world, but n the small home environment that I think you’re describing, I’d like to think everybody would respect the host’s wishes and sit down asap. But I think as soon as you create a late reg rule, you’re stuck with people exploiting it.

This is a major part of why I made the thread.

I voted to make him buy in right away because I feel it's important to the fairness of the game, but I could go the other way too. In fact, I think we have to let him buy in whenever he wants, right up until 12:29:59, if we're following a strict interpretation of the rule.

But it really does open up the rule to exploitation. The funny thing is that it's mainly exploitable by weaker players. If you're a winning player, those earlier deeper-stacked levels are generally a good value for the blinds you pay. If you're not, well, the less you play, the better, generally speaking. Letting your stack ride without having to pay blinds keeps you even and keeps you out of trouble.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I recommend reading through the threads on late entry EV on TwoPlusTwo. So far, I think the consensus is that it's -EV as a winning player to enter late because you miss the early round opportunities, and the only "angles" are if a player is better at short stack or they are checking the leaderboard.

I see you've excluded the on time bonus and blinding out. A non-EV penalty might work depending on the mood of the game. Make them wear a silly hat or take a shot.

I agree that either option is better. This conversation arose out of another thread where those two options were alternatives that @Schmendr1ck tried with his group, but blinding off was a PITA and one player—not even a habitually tardy one—was very vocally opposed to a late penalty / on-time bonus.

The vocal player even insisted that the late penalty was unfair. In the end, the game went with the structure I'm describing here, which I find to be unfair in the opposite direction. It incentives people to show up late and opens up the buy-in process to (minor, probably misled) attempts at advantage play.

This is not to overly criticize ol' Schmendy. You gotta do what makes your players happy, and if they're going to stage a mutiny over the other way, it's not really a decision. I'm mainly critical of the vocal player whose less-than-nuanced understanding of fairness forced his hand.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

This is a major part of why I made the thread.

I voted to make him buy in right away because I feel it's important to the fairness of the game, but I could go the other way too. In fact, I think we have to let him buy in whenever he wants, right up until 12:29:59, if we're following a strict interpretation of the rule.

But it really does open up the rule to exploitation. The funny thing is that it's mainly exploitable by weaker players. If you're a winning player, those earlier deeper-stacked levels are generally a good value for the blinds you pay. If you're not, well, the less you play, the better, generally speaking. Letting your stack ride without having to pay blinds keeps you even and keeps you out of trouble.

The nice thing about home games is that you don't have to tolerate players who exploit but technically follow the rules, or even those who follow the spirit of the rules but are jerks or otherwise bad for the game.

As I said earlier, I'm not going to hassle a guy for spending a few minutes socializing, having a smoke, or just chilling out before buying in. But if I get a feeling that he's doing it consistently to exploit the rule for advantage, I'm going to tell him to start buying in when he arrives or find another game. Hell, I might just skip the first part and take him off the list if he's being blatant about it.

My house, my rules, and "keep the game healthy and enjoyable for everyone" is host goal #1. Players like this do not help me achieve that goal.

 

[Jimulacrum]

And you’ve just mentioned the only reason I ever wanted to register late - rebuys.
I used to play in a freezout that changed to a rebuy. I didn’t want to rebuy and I didn’t want to change my style of play, so I just started buying in late.
That was a big MTT, different from the home game being pondered here. But i guess one takeaway is that different people like to play differently. The host needs to decide whether he wants to accommodate that.

This is a good example of where the decision of when to enter becomes a question of advantage-oriented thinking. If the first 30 minutes tend to have a structure you don't prefer, or you notice you'll be stuck on a short-handed table, or whatever, you can wait to join until then, with a full stack.

You have to take advantage of every rule within reason at a public cardroom IMO, so there's nothing unethical about this, but it's unfortunate to have the choice of when to enter itself subject to this kind of thing.

 

[upNdown]

I'm mainly critical of the vocal player whose less-than-nuanced understanding of fairness forced his hand.

Maybe I’m misreading your question, but this is what makes me say there’s no right answer. I agree with the guy that it was unfair. I also agree with the sentiment that for a small home game, you have to give some deference to the host.