Payment should be sent as friends and family???? (1 Viewer)

@Marhault : I must be missing something here. If a seller, in a private transaction, states the terms and the buyer agrees (that's a contract btw), are you suggesting the buyer should reneg that commitment?

I am not defending any kind of terms btw. I am just defending AN AGREED UPON contract. Both buyer and seller should be bound by it.
In agreed upon contract (that doesn't violate FTC regulations) sure I absolutely agree that both parties are bound. However, I know for a fact that there is FTC regulations on internet sales/eCommerce/mail order sales. Agreements mean nothing if violating laws and regulations. That being said, if I were to agree upon these terms, I wouldn't "reneg" and go back on a purchase, I would think long and hard about entering into such an agreement. I most certainly wouldn't with someone with low to no feedback here.

Laws and regulations aside, its poor form as a seller, to make the buyer assume all risk. No reputable vendor, website or retailer does that. I realize these are private sales, but they're private sales in a very public forum which kind of opens things up a bit. In the scenario above, if product is lost, essentially the buyer loses his product, his money with zero recourse. The seller takes zero responsibility when it could very easily have been poor packaging, improper shipping, or as you stated downright "scumbagery" where the seller doesn't send the item as intended. A mutual agreement would protect both the buyer AND the seller, which is where insurance comes into play.
 
Look, if a buyer wants to enter into a lopsided shitty "contract". That's on them, as long as the seller isn't violating anything by putting forth this "contract".
 
In agreed upon contract (that doesn't violate FTC regulations) sure I absolutely agree that both parties are bound. However, I know for a fact that there is FTC regulations on internet sales/eCommerce/mail order sales. Agreements mean nothing if violating laws and regulations. That being said, if I were to agree upon these terms, I wouldn't "reneg" and go back on a purchase, I would think long and hard about entering into such an agreement. I most certainly wouldn't with someone with low to no feedback here.

Laws and regulations aside, its poor form as a seller, to make the buyer assume all risk. No reputable vendor, website or retailer does that. I realize these are private sales, but they're private sales in a very public forum which kind of opens things up a bit. In the scenario above, if product is lost, essentially the buyer loses his product, his money with zero recourse. The seller takes zero responsibility when it could very easily have been poor packaging, improper shipping, or as you stated downright "scumbagery" where the seller doesn't send the item as intended. A mutual agreement would protect both the buyer AND the seller, which is where insurance comes into play.

I don't care about FTC regs since this is a small and friendly community and I expect contracts to be respected and as they are agreed upon. If the buyer wants to sue, as you are implying he should, he would never, ever again be able to show his nose around these parts and I hope no one would ever do business with said person again.

But yes, you are right, one should always think long and hard before entering a transaction of any sort, here or elsewhere. I for one would really pay attention to those willing to invoke FTC despite having agreed to something different.

I do NOT judge the terms of any sale. It is not mine to judge. My only recourse is to either accept it or decline it and move on.

Once again, I am not defending ANY terms! Every person on earth has a different sense of what's fair or right. I am just saying one should exercise his own judgement. Once the contract is set though, I expect it to be fulfilled.
 
I don't care about FTC regs since this is a small and friendly community and I expect contracts to be respected and as they are agreed upon. If the buyer wants to sue, as you are implying he should, he would never, ever again be able to show his nose around these parts and I hope no one would ever do business with said person again.

But yes, you are right, one should always think long and hard before entering a transaction of any sort, here or elsewhere. I for one would really pay attention to those willing to invoke FTC despite having agreed to something different.

I do NOT judge the terms of any sale. It is not mine to judge. My only recourse is to either accept it or decline it and move on.

Once again, I am not defending ANY terms! Every person on earth has a different sense of what's fair or right. I am just saying one should exercise his own judgement. Once the contract is set though, I expect it to be fulfilled.
You're really taking this the wrong way. I know from personal experience that there are regulations on such things, that's all I'm stating. I've made many transactions, with zero issues on this site.

Personally I look at things differently, I feel like a seller that is not willing to take any responsibility for the items they are shipping is the shady individual here.

I'm not "invoking the FTC". I wouldn't ever "reneg" on a deal. All I'm trying to say is as a person who buys a lot of things here I feel much more comfortable with a seller who is willing to back their sales as opposed to "I got paid, good luck with everything else!"
 
Personally I look at things differently, I feel like a seller that is not willing to take any responsibility for the items they are shipping is the shady individual here.

OMG!!! SHADY INDIVIDUAL?!?!?!?! The seller is the only person who can assess his/her own risks on the transaction. Not you, not me, not anyone else. Same for the buyer's risks. If for whatever reason, and I do not care which, the seller decided those are HIS/HER terms, whatever they are, that's his/her prerogative! If you don't think it's a good deal, do NOT BUY from that person!

There's a handful of people I know here that have used the FOB sale before. Most of those people are the opposite of shady and I know for a fact they had their reasons for it. Why does that make them shady? I would trust my family to those people. Calling them shady individuals is way out of line imo.
 
It’s all about trusting your fellow chip community my brother. I do F and F on here, but would NEVER on Craigslist etc. .. I’ve bought and sold on PCF no problem.
Agreed It’s all about trust on here. Every transaction I’ve done on this site is FF. I also am into the Vintage BMX Bike Hobby, but never in a million years would I ever pay FF for BMX. Too many scammers out there in the BMX World. The only people on here I wouldn’t trust with FF is someone who just signed up because there is no proven history.
 
OMG!!! SHADY INDIVIDUAL?!?!?!?! The seller is the only person who can assess his/her own risks on the transaction. Not you, not me, not anyone else. Same for the buyer's risks. If for whatever reason, and I do not care which, the seller decided those are HIS/HER terms, whatever they are, that's his/her prerogative! If you don't think it's a good deal, do NOT BUY from that person!

There's a handful of people I know here that have used the FOB sale before. Most of those people are the opposite of shady and I know for a fact they had their reasons for it. Why does that make them shady? I would trust my family to those people. Calling them shady individuals is way out of line imo.
You just called me shady for trying to give people advice to protect their interests as a buyer, all I did was throw it back.

Would you buy something from an online retailer that had these terms? Would you buy anything from anyone outside of person to person sales on here with those terms? I'd say not, but who knows.

You're taking this way too personal, I've not backed out of any deal, I've not shit on anyones sales ad, I've not even mentioned anyone in particular even though you seem to have this running list in your head.

I buy from who I want to buy from just like you. I'm only saying a seller who assumes zero risk, has zero to lose and that makes an agreement lopsided and has a POTENTIAL for very adverse consequences for the buyer. Do I feel that way about anyone in particular? No. Have I mentioned anyone in particular? No. So why are you so up in arms over some hypothetical situation that apparently is getting in your feelings?
 
Personally I look at things differently, I feel like a seller that is not willing to take any responsibility for the items they are shipping is the shady individual here.

So I guess I will just ask why I shouldn't take this personally.

I mean I appreciate that you are trying to add caution to the conversation, but this is not helpful.

And I think the feedback speaks for itself if you look at deals on PCF like this.
 
So I guess I will just ask why I shouldn't take this personally.
I took this comment personally also. I've had dealings with Todd as well. No issues. This thread kind of went sideways. It's funny how a few misguided posts in probably the wrong thread can totally alter our perception about another person. I don't know that I'd ever again sell or buy with this user. Tough beans. My loss in the end. I wouldn't want to end up in a dispute with someone who already regards me as shady.
 
You just called me shady for trying to give people advice to protect their interests as a buyer, all I did was throw it back.

Don't put words on my mouth!! Never called you shady! What I said was that entering a contract knowing such contract would be super-seeded by FTC just so one could reneg it was scumbagery. I stand by it 100%!

Would you buy something from an online retailer that had these terms? Would you buy anything from anyone outside of person to person sales on here with those terms? I'd say not, but who knows.

This is not a retail business FFS! Again, this is a tight-knit community, online and off, completely different animals! Transactions are on trust and trust only. And don't take me for a fool with your "who knows" comment. I think I'll have a few vouches I'm very far from a fool.
 
I took this comment personally also. I've had dealings with Todd as well. No issues. This thread kind of went sideways. It's funny how a few misguided posts in probably the wrong thread can totally alter our perception about another person. I don't know that I'd ever again sell or buy with this user. Tough beans. My loss in the end. I wouldn't want to end up in a dispute with someone who already regards me as shady.

This thread was fundamentally about using friends and family in PayPal. Which does not offer the buyer any protection. But it's widely accepted here as safe and social because PCF community.

I only interjected to say that I am fine if a buyer is more comfortable with G & S, it's just the buyer customarily covers that expense. I get some sellers are hesitant to accept G & S because of reporting limits at a point.

So I am just baffled that on one hand using unprotected payment is gospel. But worrying about potentially untracked shipping is a point of contention.
 
@Racer96 is a fantastic member. I've done a few deals with him now and I've had the pleasure of chatting with him via PM. My favorite thing about this community is the amount of trust and accountability that is held among everyone. I've never once had an issue when buying/selling chips. The only services i did not receive were artwork services on a set that I stupidly paid for in advance. The member did one set for me and I was highly impressed and happy so I paid him for another and got bamboozled lol.

Mohammad that really sucks. Usually most reputable artists on here collect the fees after they are done and you agree on the final design. They will usually have watermarks on what they design for you until you pay the final fee. I have my artist working on my second project now. Should the rest of the PCF know who did this to you so people know to steer clear of this person? If you don’t want to mention names that is fine too. Good luck and hopefully it’s just this Corona thing causing a delay in your artwork being done.
 
I took this comment personally also. I've had dealings with Todd as well. No issues. This thread kind of went sideways. It's funny how a few misguided posts in probably the wrong thread can totally alter our perception about another person. I don't know that I'd ever again sell or buy with this user. Tough beans. My loss in the end. I wouldn't want to end up in a dispute with someone who already regards me as shady.
Good grief guys, @ChaosRock was implying that I was "shady" by trying to inform a buyers of potential risks involved with such deals. All I was doing was throwing it back at him. I think its funny how its perfectly fine for him to call me "shady" when I've been nothing but open and honest and tried to give advice.

I don't look at either one of you as "shady" the scenario in my mind, would be a new user, with little to no feedback (as I clearly stated above) that is putting these types of stipulations on a deal. There is absolutely nothing personal involved. I apologize if you felt it was directed at either you or @JustinInMN because it wasn't and I clearly stated the scenario where I felt it would come into play.

Don't put words on my mouth!! Never called you shady! What I said was that entering a contract knowing such contract would be superseded by FTC just do one could reneg it was scumbagery. I stand by it 100%!



This is not a retail business FFS! Again, this is a tight-knit community, online and off, completely different animals! Transactions are on trust and trust only. And don't take me for a fool with your "who knows" comment. I think I'll have a few vouches I'm very far from a fool.

I really don't know what to tell you. I've seen people burnt before by people who were a part of this "tight knit community" I have people I trust completely on here and there have been very few occasions where I've decided the risk of buying from a particular individual was too high to continue with, but I can say without a doubt that I have not purchased things because of those worries. I've also been burnt personally as a buyer by people in this "tight knit community" All I'm trying to do is give people some healthy advice to think about when making a purchase. Nothing more nothing less. You take that personally, that's your own projection because its not meant personally.
 
Mohammad that really sucks. Usually most reputable artists on here collect the fees after they are done and you agree on the final design. They will usually have watermarks on what they design for you until you pay the final fee. I have my artist working on my second project now. Should the rest of the PCF know who did this to you so people know to steer clear of this person? If you don’t want to mention names that is fine too. Good luck and hopefully it’s just this Corona thing causing a delay in your artwork being done.
There's a whole thread dedicated to the guy! He did a design for me within like 2 days so he earned my trust that way and I paid him for the second set. He did work on it for a few days and gave me a few mockups and then went AWOL.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/anyone-know-where-moscowradio-is.43401/
 
This thread was fundamentally about using friends and family in PayPal. Which does not offer the buyer any protection. But it's widely accepted here as safe and social because PCF community.

I only interjected to say that I am fine if a buyer is more comfortable with G & S, it's just the buyer customarily covers that expense. I get some sellers are hesitant to accept G & S because of reporting limits at a point.

So I am just baffled that on one hand using unprotected payment is gospel. But worrying about potentially untracked shipping is a point of contention.
I am a seller who sends a high volume of sales via padded mailers in lettermail class. So no tracking or insurance is even available. EDIT : unless I bump the shipping price 5x

Until COVID, I've not had a single package go missing. One did go missing recently, and in that case, I failed to offer a tracked price. The chips are worth $10. In this case, it's on me. I have cut cards that I haven't received, and likely won't receive, and I don't feel it's the sellers responsibility. Can't blame carriers mistakes on seller or buyer. IMHO. There are inherently risks taken and it's okay. Lost is lost. Can't start pulling out regs and rules and shit.

I have learned a bit from this thread though. From everyone.

I know I am NOT a shady seller. I'm a good person, I've got a fair amount of feedback, and adding one more user to my ignore list ain't gonna end this hobby for me
 
Good grief guys, @ChaosRock was implying that I was "shady" by trying to inform a buyers of potential risks involved with such deals.

WHAT?!?!?!?! (@ChaosRock was implying that I was "shady" by trying to inform a buyers of potential risks) Dude, get lost! That's not AT ALL what I was doing. LOL!!!

You are really taking me for fool, huh?

I was clear, and stand by it, what I was referring to. Everyone with minimum reading comprehension can see that. I am ALL FOR, and have ALWAYS BEEN FOR helping out. Why would I go after you if I thought that's what you are doing?

I won't state my point again. You're done.
 
I am a seller who sends a high volume of sales via padded mailers in lettermail class. So no tracking or insurance is even available. EDIT : unless I bump the shipping price 5x

Until COVID, I've not had a single package go missing. One did go missing recently, and in that case, I failed to offer a tracked price. The chips are worth $10. In this case, it's on me. I have cut cards that I haven't received, and likely won't receive, and I don't feel it's the sellers responsibility. Can't blame carriers mistakes on seller or buyer. IMHO. There are inherently risks taken and it's okay. Lost is lost. Can't start pulling out regs and rules and shit.

I have learned a bit from this thread though. From everyone.

I know I am NOT a shady seller. I'm a good person, I've got a fair amount of feedback, and adding one more user to my ignore list ain't gonna end this hobby for me
You completely misunderstood. Not sure why this has gone so far off the rails. I'm sure its my inability to communicate. Like I said, I apologize. There's nothing personal at all meant or implied.
 
WHAT?!?!?!?! (@ChaosRock was implying that I was "shady" by trying to inform a buyers of potential risks) Dude, get lost! That's not AT ALL what I was doing. LOL!!!

You are really taking me for fool, huh?

I was clear, and stand by it, what I was referring to. Everyone with minimum reading comprehension can see that. I am ALL FOR, and have ALWAYS BEEN FOR helping out. Why would I go after you if I thought that's what you are doing?

I won't state my point again. You're done.
Look, obviously I'm not communicating my point. I apologize to all those involved. It was never my intent to upset anyone.
 
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The only services i did not receive were artwork services on a set that I stupidly paid for in advance.
There's a whole thread dedicated to the guy! He did a design for me within like 2 days so he earned my trust that way and I paid him for the second set.

I am afraid I also am in the burned by Moscow crowd. Thankfully Woody stepped up to finish my design. Even though I paid for my designs twice, I still love my customs.
 
I am afraid I also am in the burned by Moscow crowd. Thankfully Woody stepped up to finish my design. Even though I paid for my designs twice, I still love my customs.
Woody offered to take mine on, great guy. Definitely want a set designed by him eventually.
 
I think I'll have a few vouches I'm very far from a fool.

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yeah this had me thinking the same thing. but once i started buying from here, you start to understand that its basically a family in here and no one is trying to screw anyone
 
Just pay with “ Goods and Services “ I usually cover the extra PayPal fee and seller is happen as am I knowing I’m protected
 
Just pay with “ Goods and Services “ I usually cover the extra PayPal fee and seller is happen as am I knowing I’m protected
No, don't.... at least not without asking first.

All G&S transactions on my business account are treated as reportable income (which does NOT make me happy). Unless the buyer is willing to cover the immediate PP fees PLUS my expected tax liability on the transaction amount, I simply don't do G&S chip transactions.....for anybody.

Don't feel safe or protected when dealing with me? Then go elsewhere. Plenty of trustworthy buyers and sellers out there.
 

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