Payment should be sent as friends and family???? (1 Viewer)

[Marhault]

Because I did my sample sets via first class mail to keep the price as low as possible, I did have a policy of "Buyer assumes risk once postal service has custody of parcel. If buyer wishes to add tracking, please add $3.50 to include Certified Mail service. I will gladly provide the tracking number after purchasing postage." clearly stated in my ad.

Thankfully, other than a delay due to under-posting one of the shipments (which I took responsibility for), everything went off just fine .

I am fine giving buyers the option to use G & S if they cover, I take no offense at that. I get using G & S has tax implications for sellers at a certain level that I am nowhere near, which is often another reason sellers prefer F & F.

I'm pretty sure that even with your disclaimer that the buyer is responsible or assumes the risk that it doesn't change anything legally. According to the USPS sellers are responsible for goods. That being said I guess you could always just say it wasn't a sale since it was friends and family payment. Personally I wouldn't buy from someone who puts something like this in their ad simply because I've had too many poorly packaged goods and your "disclaimer" would be a red flag to me. I think with a reputable buyer and a reputable seller you should stand behind your sales and purchases.

Off topic slightly but as far as insurance. I've been told several times from several sources that insurance won't cover poker chips lost or damaged. Is that true? I've heard conflicting stories as to why, so if anyone does know if this is true and why I'd love to know specifics.

 

[JustinInMN]

Personally I wouldn't buy from someone who puts something like this in their ad simply because I've had too many poorly packaged goods and your "disclaimer" would be a red flag to me. I think with a reputable buyer and a reputable seller you should stand behind your sales and purchases.

Your choice, I don't think I am the only seller on PCF to do this and I had at least six people leave positive feedback on that sale, no neutrals or negatives.

I am allowing the buyer to make an informed choice. If I had to track and insure all packages, it would have tripled the shipping cost and suddenly an $7 sample set becomes $12 for 4 chips.

Buyers had to option to elect this and didn't.

Buyers and sellers can come to whatever terms they agree, I laid out a default term in the interest of keeping the cost down. If buyer wanted to cover the cost of protection, they could do so, no one did.

 

[Marhault]

Your choice, I don't think I am the only seller on PCF to do this and I had at least six people leave positive feedback on that sale, no neutrals or negatives.

I am allowing the buyer to make an informed choice. If I had to track and insure all packages, it would have tripled the shipping cost and suddenly an $7 sample set becomes $12 for 4 chips.

Buyers had to option to elect this and didn't.

Buyers and sellers can come to whatever terms they agree, I laid out a default term in the interest of keeping the cost down. If buyer wanted to cover the cost of protection, they could do so, no one did.

You can ship a sample set with tracking for just a few bucks. Not sure where you're shipping through.

I think in the end if there was an issue the responsibility would still lie with the seller regardless of your disclaimer.

 

[davethesave]

Great information. Great thread everyone!

 

[sheikh617]

@Racer96 is a fantastic member. I've done a few deals with him now and I've had the pleasure of chatting with him via PM. My favorite thing about this community is the amount of trust and accountability that is held among everyone. I've never once had an issue when buying/selling chips. The only services i did not receive were artwork services on a set that I stupidly paid for in advance. The member did one set for me and I was highly impressed and happy so I paid him for another and got bamboozled lol.

 

[Marhault]

@Racer96 is a fantastic member. I've done a few deals with him now and I've had the pleasure of chatting with him via PM. My favorite thing about this community is the amount of trust and accountability that is held among everyone. I've never once had an issue when buying/selling chips. The only services i did not receive were artwork services on a set that I stupidly paid for in advance. The member did one set for me and I was highly impressed and happy so I paid him for another and got bamboozled lol.

Absolutely @Racer96 is one of the best. You can 110% trust him. Nothing but praise from me.

 

[JustinInMN]

You can ship a sample set with tracking for just a few bucks. Not sure where you're shipping through.

First class USPS large envelope. Which doesn't have tracking unless you add certified, which is $3.50, which I made optional to the buyer.

Believe me, if I were shipping anything bigger it would be via a trackable and insured method, but at some point tracking, insurance, and shipping itself makes small quantities like 4-chip samples prohibitive to sell.

Enough people were fine with this deal to do it. It will be long time before I sell samples again, but I think it was fine and the feedback was all positive.

 

[Marhault]

First class USPS large envelope. Which doesn't have tracking unless you add certified, which is $3.50, which I made optional to the buyer.

Believe me, if I were shipping anything bigger it would be via a trackable and insured method, but at some point tracking, insurance, and shipping itself makes small quantities like 4-chip samples prohibitive to sell.

Enough people were fine with this deal to do it. It will be long time before I sell samples again, but I think it was fine and the feedback was all positive.

You can still ship things in small padded envelopes with tracking for nothing, you just need to look around. I ship small samples all the time for anywhere from 2.50-5 dollars tops.

 

[Tommy]

then proper (or overkill) packing and packaging

Overkill you say...

 

[JustinInMN]

You can still ship things in small padded envelopes with tracking for nothing, you just need to look around. I ship small samples all the time for anywhere from 2.50-5 dollars tops.

Well that would have been handy knowledge abcouple months ago. My research showed carriers won't pick anything else up for less than $10 it seems, so ai did USPS first class was the best option and my shipping expenses were around $3-5/ unit including materials and postage.

Who do you use to do it for less?

 

[JustinInMN]

Also it seems bizzare we are getting worried about accountability in shipping costs and tracking in the same thread with the purpose of reassuring a buyer using an unprotected payment form is safe.

 

[Marhault]

Well that would have been handy knowledge abcouple months ago. My research showed carriers won't pick anything else up for less than $10 it seems, so ai did USPS first class was the best option and my shipping expenses were around $3-5/ unit including materials and postage.

Who do you use to do it for less?

USPS first class parcel service. It's based off weight, you can use any size padded envelope for the most part and it typically ranges anywhere from 2-5 bucks with tracking included. If I only have a couple small packages I always just put them in my mailbox.

With insurance like I asked before. I've been told by several reputable and experienced sellers on here that with poker chips we are SOL as far as a successful insurance claim. If anyone could confirm or deny that I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Marhault]

Also it seems bizzare we are getting worried about accountability in shipping costs and tracking in the same thread with the purpose of reassuring a buyer using an unprotected payment form is safe.

Lol it's off the rails for sure but I think the OP got what he needed. I was just responding to your post I guess and was curious about the insurance thing.

 

[Jeevansluck]

Well that would have been handy knowledge abcouple months ago. My research showed carriers won't pick anything else up for less than $10 it seems, so ai did USPS first class was the best option and my shipping expenses were around $3-5/ unit including materials and postage.

Who do you use to do it for less?

For me in Canada, to ship a sample set of 10 chips or less to USA, costs around $4CDN. I usually ask for $3USD.

To add tracking to the same parcel, the price goes to $18CDN. Not a typo.

If a buyer is offered the tracked price and the non-tracked price, and a buyer opts for non-tracked shipment, I can't agree the seller is on the hook. The buyer can simply refuse to buy to begin with.

I've recently had a non-tracked package go missing. This sucks. However, I forgot or failed to offer a tracked price. So, in this case, I'm going to offer a refund. The buyer asked me if I had insurance. For a sample set with a value of $10, adding insurance and tracking would have cost $23CDN. It's a tough call.

I know I'm in Canada, and things are not the same when you add a border to the discussion.

You can ship a sample set with tracking for just a few bucks. Not sure where you're shipping through.

I think in the end if there was an issue the responsibility would still lie with the seller regardless of your disclaimer.

That said, if a buyer agrees to a non-tracked shipment, why should a seller be on the hook if it gets lost?

 

[JustinInMN]

USPS first class parcel service. It's based off weight, you can use any size padded envelope for the most part and it typically ranges anywhere from 2-5 bucks with tracking included

I guess that didn't come up because I searched envelope pricing.

This probably would have been a good option, and if any buyer asked for it, I would have looked into it. Probably would have added between 1-2 dollars to the pricing I used, but glad to know about it for next time.

 

[Marhault]

For me in Canada, to ship a sample set of 10 chips or less to USA, costs around $4CDN. I usually ask for $3USD.

To add tracking to the same parcel, the price goes to $18CDN. Not a typo.

If a buyer is offered the tracked price and the non-tracked price, and a buyer opts for non-tracked shipment, I can't agree the seller is on the hook. The buyer can simply refuse to buy to begin with.

I've recently had a non-tracked package go missing. This sucks. However, I forgot or failed to offer a tracked price. So, in this case, I'm going to offer a refund. The buyer asked me if I had insurance. For a sample set with a value of $10, adding insurance and tracking would have cost $23CDN. It's a tough call.

I know I'm in Canada, and things are not the same when you add a border to the discussion.




That said, if a buyer agrees to a non-tracked shipment, why should a seller be on the hook if it gets lost?

Simple. The buyer has never in theory had possession of the items so how could they hold any liability.

 

[Jeevansluck]

Simple. The buyer has never in theory had possession of the items so how could they hold any liability.

So I have pictures of each package I've mailed. At the post office with a post mark, how does that not absolve me of liability if I have a disclaimer that states that? A buyer can refuse to buy. Liability at that point lies with the carrier. Not the buyer or seller.

 

[JustinInMN]

Simple. The buyer has never in theory had possession of the items so how could they hold any liability.

The buyer and seller are agreeing to a delivery method and its risks, buyer can back out of the deal before consenting to terms.

 

[Marhault]

So I have pictures of each package I've mailed. At the post office with a post mark, how does that not absolve me of liability if I have a disclaimer that states that? A buyer can refuse to buy. Liability at that point lies with the carrier. Not the buyer or seller.

Insurance is the sellers responsibility which means they are responsible for the package till its received. I really have no clue about Canadian post, but in the US when its comes to mail order transactions, the responsibility is on the seller until the buyer receives the package.

 

[JustinInMN]

Insurance is the sellers responsibility which means they are responsible for the package till its received.

I would say you are right absent an agreement otherwise between the buyer and seller. That's the point being disputed.

It is more common for sellers to disclaim themselves on PCF for international shipping. They have far less control over that once custody crossing international boundaries.

 

[Marhault]

I would say you are right absent an agreement otherwise between the buyer and seller. That's the point being disputed.

I'm no legal beagle but I know there's FTC rules on this stuff. My grandmother used to make quilts and sell them online (way early days of ecommerce) and there is without a doubt a legal precedence that puts the responsibility on the seller. Now can you make an agreement that supercedes those rules? Possibly, but in reality a good seller would guarantee their shipments and protect their financial liabilities with insurance. The buyer can't reasonably be expected to hold responsibility for the arrival of an item he's never actually had possession of. There's a reason that sites like eBay and paypal almost exclusively side with the buyer (to a detriment in quite a few cases)

This is all of course based on a LOST package. Packages that are deemed delivered by the USPS but the buyer seemingly never receives are treated differently at least as far as the investigation goes.

 

[Sambukan]

Overkill you say...

View attachment 442721

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Just had to google what this is

 

[BGinGA]

@Marhault

USPS will honor insurance claims, so long as you can prove value by providing a receipt of purchase for the lost item. Chips are not exceptions.

But if you originally paid $179 for that rack of PCA secondary $100s from TCR and have a Paypal receipt, that's all that USPS will reimburse you, regardless if you sold them (and insured them) for $600 or not.

You might be able to get an independent appraisal for a larger amount approved by USPS, but good luck going down that road.

 

[Marhault]

@Marhault

USPS will honor insurance claims, so long as you can prove value by providing a receipt of purchase for the lost item. Chips are not exceptions.

But if you originally paid $179 for that rack of PCA secondary $100s from TCR and have a Paypal receipt, that's all that USPS will reimburse you, regardless if you sold them (and insured them) for $600 or not.

You might be able to get an independent appraisal for a larger amount approved by USPS, but good luck going down that road.

So keep receipts! Lol

 

[ChaosRock]

@Marhault : I must be missing something here. If a seller, in a private transaction, states the terms and the buyer agrees (that's a contract btw), are you suggesting the buyer should reneg that commitment?

I am not defending any kind of terms btw. I am just defending AN AGREED UPON contract. Both buyer and seller should be bound by it.

 

[BGinGA]

@Marhault : I must be missing something here. If a seller, in a private transaction, states the terms and the buyer agrees (that's a contract btw), are you suggesting the buyer should reneg that commitment?

I am not defending any kind of terms btw. I am just defending AN AGREED UPON contract. Both buyer and seller should be bound by it.

Only reason an agreed-upon contract would not be binding is if it were illegal.

 

[ChaosRock]

Only reason an agreed-upon contract would not be binding is if it were illegal.

Even if it’s still ilegal, entering a contract planning on reneging the terms is not only bad faith but scumbagery.

 

[Marhault]

Even if it’s still ilegal, entering a contract planning on reneging the terms is not only bad faith but scumbagery.

I have no clue where you got your assessment from what I said. I'm saying that the seller is responsible for insurance and responsible for delivery of items to the buyer. That's it. I'm not saying anyone should "reneg" on anything or to participate in "scumbagery" lol

 

[ChaosRock]

I have no clue where you got your assessment from what I said. I'm saying that the seller is responsible for insurance and responsible for delivery of items to the buyer. That's it. I'm not saying anyone should "reneg" on anything or to participate in "scumbagery" lol

It was mentioned many times by @JustinInMN and @Jeevansluck , that sometimes the terms stablished by the seller (and agreed upon by the buyer) state the seller would NOT be responsible for insurance and will NOT be responsible for the goods after it has been received by the postoffice. To which you said it doesn't matter what the buyer agreed, the seller is still responsible. Did I misread your replies?

 

[BGinGA]

the seller is responsible for insurance and responsible for delivery of items to the buyer.

But not true, if the seller and buyer agreed to different terms.