PAHWM - NLHE (1 Viewer)

[Frogzilla]

Smashed the flop hard with two way straight draw and nut flush. We have a ton of equity against everybody’s range here. One argument towards deceptive calls when we are this deep multi-way and our draws are nutted, you can cooler stack them. So keeping gutshots like A4, A5 and baby spade flush draws in has huge implied odd payoff.

I lean towards raise to 10000 but trapping is tempting. I wonder what Pluribus would do

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Raise to 12k, put pressure on these jabronis. If you get re-raised jam it in, equity wise you're ahead of every over pair, even aces.

 

[DrStrange]

I think a raise looks best. Maybe not full pot. A lot depends on Hero's historical raise structure.

The question on my mind is take the free card or fire a second time? (if offered / if needed)

DrStrange

 

[Saoliver]

I think a raise looks best. Maybe not full pot. A lot depends on Hero's historical raise structure.

The question on my mind is take the free card or fire a second time? (if offered / if needed)

DrStrange

I like to raise in spots like this when in position and I may be behind but have a ton of outs. You get information and often get the river for free.

 

[CraigT78]

Nearly everyone thinks a raise here is best. Any argument for just calling? We still have BB behind us.

 

[detroitdad]

Nearly everyone thinks a raise here is best. Any argument for just calling? We still have BB behind us.

fuck the BB

 

[Moxie Mike]

Nearly everyone thinks a raise here is best. Any argument for just calling? We still have BB behind us.

No. The problem with calling is you have no plan if the turn blanks off. You can semi-bluff if checked to... but what story are you telling at that poiint? and against multiple opponents, you could find yourself in a tough spot if one of your OOP opponents bets big - or if there's a bet and a raise.

If you bet and get called on the turn, what if the river bricks? Bluff-shove? Bluff smaller? Check back with your tail between your legs?

Conversely, by raising to 10k, you might just win the pot right there (I don't agree with others who say this is a bad thing... any time I can win a decent size pot with Ace high I am happy), and if you get called, you can reasonable jam any turn when checked to, maximizing your fold equity.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Nearly everyone thinks a raise here is best. Any argument for just calling? We still have BB behind us.

When you have Ace high as your showdown right now but are drawing to the nuts multiple ways you don’t care if someone else is in the hand other than possibly more chips when you hit. If you beat one, you beat them all. If you lose to one you lose to them all.

 

[Frogzilla]

Nearly everyone thinks a raise here is best. Any argument for just calling? We still have BB behind us.

Calling keeps it multi-way, lets us know more info about the runout before committing a lot of chips, and maximizes our positional advantage on later streets.

You absolutely do not have to go HAM and get stacks in by the turn with every nut flush draw 4-ways 150bb deep. Raise still is my main line, but it’s close

 

[CraigT78]

Hero elected not to raise and calls.
BB calls.

Turn -
Pot - 11,800

Villain makes it 11k

CO folds

Hero?

 

[Legend5555]

Hero elected not to raise and calls.
BB calls.

Turn -
Pot - 11,800

Villain makes it 11k

CO folds

Hero?

234 or 345? It was 345 in OP.

 

[CraigT78]

234 or 345? It was 345 in OP.

345 - fixed. TY

 

[Rhodeman77]

Hero elected not to raise and calls.
BB calls.

Turn -
Pot - 11,800

Villain makes it 11k

CO folds

Hero?

Bad card. Possibly killing some of our straight and top pair outs. Though the fact that he is continuing to bet into multiple callers on the flop and that Jack doesn’t worry him says he should be pretty strong. Possibly QQ?

We can’t rep much of anything by raising other than maybe AJss.

You started down the calling path, I think you need to call again now.

 

[kirchhausen]

Assuming all of your straight outs are good, you are at least 32.61% to win the hand (15 outs/46 unseen cards). Calling 11,000 to win 33,800 is 32.55%. You are at least getting the odds to call.

So now the dilemma... do we turn our string draw into a bluff and represent a set? What villain reads so we have? Is he a calling station? How do you think he perceives your play? Are you usually a passive, non-bluffy player (it seems like you may be if you are just calling that flop), and does he realize this? How often can you get a bluff through on this guy? If you jam, it is about a pot-size bet so it is the right size...

I could really go either way. It's kind of a coin flip. If your table image is nitty, bluffs are going to work more often and they are more profitable. Plus, you need to work some bluffs into your jamming range, so people dont always fold when you get it in.

 

[Legend5555]

We still have plenty left in our stack to just call. If we call, pot will be 33.8k and we will have 41.1k behind. So the only real raise would be to jam, as any other size leaves a pittance to bet on River compared to pot size.

At this point villain is only really repping JJ-KK and 33-55. Unless he is going ballistic with K high spades or is capable of raising 67 suited preflop. I don't think jamming will accomplish a fold unless this villain is capable of folding an overpair. So just take your pot + minimal implied odds and call.

 

[Legend5555]

We still have plenty left in our stack to just call. If we call, pot will be 33.8k and we will have 41.1k behind. So the only real raise would be to jam, as any other size leaves a pittance to bet on River compared to pot size.

At this point villain is only really repping JJ-KK and 33-55. Unless he is going ballistic with K high spades or is capable of raising 67 suited preflop. I don't think jamming will accomplish a fold unless this villain is capable of folding an overpair. So just take your pot + minimal implied odds and call.

Note that if villain is capable of opening fairly wide, then I'm much more apt to raise the turn (though the story is less consistent with a set given the flop texture, which is why raising the flop would be more common). It's possible villain could have turned a club draw and is betting big now that they picked up additional equity.

But what hands would do that that also bet the flop multiway? It would have to be a straight draw that is picking up equity. Something like or . But those seem like a very small bluff portion of a range that has more value hands.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Bad card. Possibly killing some of our straight and top pair outs. Though the fact that he is continuing to bet into multiple callers on the flop and that Jack doesn’t worry him says he should be pretty strong. Possibly QQ?

We can’t rep much of anything by raising other than maybe AJss.

You started down the calling path, I think you need to call again now.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here with this opinion, but I'm folding here. The reasons are:

1) Stack Preservation - should require no explanation.
2) If HERO calls the 11k bet, his hand is face up to all but the most ignorant of opponents. I have a hard time imaging HERO will be able to get paid off should any of his clean outs hits the river.
3) We don't know what the BB is going to do.
4) A third club or board pairing on the river must be approached with caution. For example, if the hits the river and either villain bets 20k, HERO may have to call off half his remaining stack with what could end up being the 2nd best hand.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think it's fine to be of the opinion of folding here, but then, one really shouldn't be playing A6s at all, which can be a fine strategy too.

Personally I think this is a missed opportunity on the flop. It's not bad to win this pot outright, it's not bad to get called by anything, except sets and even then, far from dead. This had is much better when you know you get both cards, taking the middle line posed the problem hero is facing, villian can price out the draw.

 

[Frogzilla]

We have direct odds to call if BB calls behind and are close if he doesnt. Add in the fact that the 3 aces might be good (if we’re up against QQ, KK) and that we have implied value on a deuce if either BB or MP holds something like Axcc, and implied value with a spade if either have a worse spade draw. Definitely a profitable call.

Raise is interesting but don’t know how big of a raising range we should have because it’s a weird line to take after the flop call.

Call > Raise > Fold

 

[CraigT78]

Anymore input? I'll post action in the morning

 

[Anthony Martino]

Preflop I'm fine with calling or raising.

On the flop raising to 12K and willing to play for stacks in this spot since we have so much equity here. If they just call your raise and you whiff the turn you should get a free card guaranteeing you can realizing your equity. Make sure you look at Villain and give him one of these after you raise.

As played, I'm fine with folding or calling the turn since we have position going to the river and we're getting about the right price to try and draw out, but Villain is certainly repping an overpair

 

[Copper44]

Anymore input? I'll post action in the morning

You finishing?

 

[Forty4]

Guess the hand has him so distraught that he has been drowning his sorrows. Oh wait it’s @CraigT78 thread, I would have thought his tolerance was much higher.

Other option is that he sobered up and no longer remembers the fuzzy details.

 

[Copper44]

I’m going with option 2!

 

[Frogzilla]

I will help out

Pre: 200/400 “Skilled” LAG opens MP for 900
CO calls
Hero calls :As: 60000 effective
Blinds donate

Flop 3,800 5-ways
Flop is
Blinds check
V c-bet 2000
CO calls
Hero calls
SB fold
BB call

Turn 11,800 4-ways

BB checks
Villain bets 11000.
CO folds
Hero calls
Bb folds

River 33,800 heads up

V bets 25000
Hero?

Spoiler

Hero makes a super standard fold, blocking a massive part of the bluff range (Axss)

Villain (me) broke my New Years resolution and shows as Legend guessed.
[\spoiler]

 

[CraigT78]

@Frogzilla is right. I called the turn. Rivered a blank. He hero bet 25k, and I folded the winning hand.

 

[CraigT78]

You finishing?

That's what she said.

 

[Legend5555]

Hero pretty much had to fold. Given how hero has played the hand, a good villain can put safely value bet QQ-AA. Unless villain if one to check and bluff catch. Which given the board might not be a bad idea.

Either way, villains most likely bluffs are missed clubs or maybe straights if villain opens somewhat wide. But villain can easily have JJ+ and maybe even 33-55.

 

[Legend5555]

I will help out

Pre: 200/400 “Skilled” LAG opens MP for 900
CO calls
Hero calls :As: 60000 effective
Blinds donate

Flop 3,800 5-ways
Flop is
Blinds check
V c-bet 2000
CO calls
Hero calls
SB fold
BB call

Turn 11,800 4-ways

BB checks
Villain bets 11000.
CO folds
Hero calls
Bb folds

River 33,800 heads up

V bets 25000
Hero?

Spoiler

Hero makes a super standard fold, blocking a massive part of the bluff range (Axss)

Villain (me) broke my New Years resolution and shows as Legend guessed.
[\spoiler]

I will say @Frogzilla , it was pretty ballsy to continue to fire this bluff into 2 players. Makes your line very credible for value though.

 

[JustinInMN]

I am fine with the fold as played. If hero isn't shoving the flop it is specifically to save this bet on the river.

But it does kind of illustrate an overlooked downside of a strategy to try and "keep bluffs in" with medium strength hands if hero is in a position to fold the best hand against a Villian turning a missed straight draw into a bluff. Personally, I only favor this sort of strategy with nuttier hands in tighter games.

@CraigT78 may have lost this hand, but his customs make him a winner at life.