PAHWM - J9s BB Defend (1 Viewer)

[Legend5555]

Online Micro Stakes
Trying to get myself back into good fundamental shape. Using poker tracker again to see how I stack up these days.

Going to use PT Replayer pictures to go through the hand.

Preflop:
Hero in BB
Only 15 hands on the villain, so no reliable reads or stats. But given the general player pool, I assume he is a fairly normal villain. His early stats indicate he will likely be playing around a 25% Vpip and 18-20% PFR.

I think this preflop is pretty standard spot, but I'm going to include all decision points.

Hero?

 

[DrStrange]

J9s is a fine hand to defend with. Hero has options, a three-bet resteal and flatting the button raise. Which is best seems villain dependent but here villain is a random.

Let's take both lines with some regularity. Today, I choose a 3-bet raise to 6BB.

 

[LeLe]

Out of position, J9 suit are a good hand to defend but not that strong enough to 3 bet making the pot overly big.

I will prob just call the 2.5bb to see the flop before deciding next action of play

 

[Kain8]

Happy to defend here.

 

[grebe]

I lean towards a 3! here. Defending is fine, too. Is this a standard raise for the table? Seems on the small side for micros....which CAN be a sizing tell.

Reasons to 3!:
-His bet could be on the small side...thus he could be looking to get a cheap advantage
-It protects your range while possibly exposing V's range.
-Sooted
-You can easily rep a big hand and take the pot down on the flop with a Cbet, or you can flop a bunch of equity.
-You can easily fold to a 4!

Reasons to not 3!
-it's scary

 

[Legend5555]

I lean towards a 3! here. Defending is fine, too. Is this a standard raise for the table? Seems on the small side for micros....which CAN be a sizing tell.

Reasons to 3!:
-His bet could be on the small side...thus he could be looking to get a cheap advantage
-It protects your range while possibly exposing V's range.
-Sooted
-You can easily rep a big hand and take the pot down on the flop with a Cbet, or you can flop a bunch of equity.
-You can easily fold to a 4!

Reasons to not 3!
-it's scary

This is standard for most 6 max on ACR. 2.2-2.5x.

 

[boltonguy]

Call. Would prefer to have more hands on v to have a reliable VPIP and fold to 3! Stat to take that line. I see more 3! Defense IP than is optimal so I don’t think we have as much FE in this spot vs the pool as I would want to bluff raise here and play a bloated hand oop in this configuration. More inclined to 3 bet this hand in SB vs CO or BN to iso but here we are HU and closing the action.

 

[Legend5555]

Online Micro Stakes
Trying to get myself back into good fundamental shape. Using poker tracker again to see how I stack up these days.

Going to use PT Replayer pictures to go through the hand.

Preflop:
Hero in BB
Only 15 hands on the villain, so no reliable reads or stats. But given the general player pool, I assume he is a fairly normal villain. His early stats indicate he will likely be playing around a 25% Vpip and 18-20% PFR.

I think this preflop is pretty standard spot, but I'm going to include all decision points.

Hero calls. Sometimes Hero will 3 bet here, but in general would need more stats on villain. Players at the micros tend to defend to 3 bets a bit too much. Even more so when they have position. Which can get you into situations where you can end up dominated more than you would expect in a spot like this. Hero also tends to defend pretty wide from the BB against 2.5x or smaller opens, and 3! less often.

Hero calls.

Hero checks. Villain bets. Hero?

 

[Han Trinh]

Sample size of 15 is a bit small to reliably judge PFR percentages... You can use it as a guide for now, but be careful not to overweight any decisions based on it quite yet.

In any case with a 2.5bb villain pre-flop raise, your J9 suited is a fine BB defend with in a cash game. Given that it's at the bottom half of your calling range, I wouldn't raise with this hand. It's too weak to raise, and too weak to play an inflated pot out of position with unless you smash the flop hard.

As for 3betting in the BB, note that your J-9 blocks out the middle and weaker parts of of your villain's 20% PFR raising range. Basically Villain's overall continuation range is going to be much stronger than yours going to the flop in general compared to your J-9 (if they called your preflop BB raise)

 

[Han Trinh]

On the flop with a J72, I like the hero check, followed by a call. Do not re-raise to inflate the pot.

 

[LeLe]

J9 on a J72 is a good flop for the Hero, checking is good, any J 10 8 9 7 will be good turn card for us.

However, we need to be careful as J9 is very easy dominated by J10 JQ JK JA all within the villian raising range

 

[Coyote]

Probably a cheap way to find out about his holding and intentions would be to re-raise here, on the flop.
If called or re-reraised, you can let it go light-heartedly.

 

[Legend5555]

Sample size of 15 is a bit small to reliably judge PFR percentages... You can use it as a guide for now, but be careful not to overweight any decisions based on it quite yet.

In any case with a 2.5bb villain pre-flop raise, your J9 suited is a fine BB defend with in a cash game. Given that it's at the bottom half of your calling range, I wouldn't raise with this hand. It's too weak to raise, and too weak to play an inflated pot out of position with unless you smash the flop hard.

As for 3betting in the BB, note that your J-9 blocks out the middle and weaker parts of of your villain's 20% PFR raising range. Basically Villain's overall continuation range is going to be much stronger than yours going to the flop in general compared to your J-9 (if they called your preflop BB raise)

Hero is not taking the stats too much into consideration. The avg population of "solid" players at these stakes on this site are playing in the 20-26/16-22 range. So without seeing a weird showdown or any hand that would tip off to being overly weak, Hero just generally assumes most 2.5xing villain's are in this general area. Basically, Hero just plays pretty straightforward and GTOish without any other info (even though Hero would not say he is super GTO).

 

[boltonguy]

I like a X/C here. IMHO our hand isnt strong enough against V's range to raise for value, nor is it weak enough with outs to a very strong hand to semi-bluff raise here. I would bluff check raise with AdXd or 8x9x for example, if called we have equity to improve to a very strong hand. If we raise and get a call with our specific hand we are likely toast with few outs to improve and those outs may improve V as well (e.g. V calls with KJ and a J comes).

 

[grebe]

You are check calling here almost always since nobody wants to play for the win! Now you are wishing you 3! though, amIright???

Yeah, check call....and you are checking all turn cards as well. We do not have the lead, and there is no reason to take it since V is still betting. Let's hope for anything J or less.

 

[grebe]

Call. Would prefer to have more hands on v to have a reliable VPIP and fold to 3! Stat to take that line. I see more 3! Defense IP than is optimal so I don’t think we have as much FE in this spot vs the pool as I would want to bluff raise here and play a bloated hand oop in this configuration. More inclined to 3 bet this hand in SB vs CO or BN to iso but here we are HU and closing the action.

For the record, I am not looking for a fold pre....I am looking for a fold on the Cbet post flop when he misses 66% of the time....because we have the range advantage.

Also, I play on bovada, and 3X is the standard bet. I see this open as potential weakness until I see otherwise....even if it is standard. I am about to start over at ACR though very soon.

 

[Legend5555]

Preflop:
Hero in BB
Only 15 hands on the villain, so no reliable reads or stats. But given the general player pool, I assume he is a fairly normal villain. His early stats indicate he will likely be playing around a 25% Vpip and 18-20% PFR.

I think this preflop is pretty standard spot, but I'm going to include all decision points.

Hero calls. Sometimes Hero will 3 bet here, but in general would need more stats on villain. Players at the micros tend to defend to 3 bets a bit too much. Even more so when they have position. Which can get you into situations where you can end up dominated more than you would expect in a spot like this. Hero also tends to defend pretty wide from the BB against 2.5x or smaller opens, and 3! less often.

Hero calls.

Hero checks. Villain bets. Hero makes what he thinks is a pretty standard call. Hand is too strong to fold, to weak to raise, especially OOP.

Turn goes check check so picture not included. I don't think most people are going to claim betting turn makes any sense.

River. Hero?

 

[LeLe]

Judging from the action, I putting Villain on a middle pocket pair that miss set mining maybe Pocket 44, 55 or 88 Or a Ax that hit a pair

I will try to value bet my J at the river at around 5.5- 6 bb targeting those 1 pair to call

 

[boltonguy]

If we bet 5 BB here and V raises 3x+, we will probably need to fold losing our 5BB and not getting to SD.
Instead if we X here and V bets 5BB we can call and hope to win at SD.
Both outcomes cost 5BB but the X puts us in a position to get to SD and possibly win.

I looked at the solver and the GTO strat is mixed here 64% X / 36% Bet 1/2 pot. So all answers are good!

 

[grebe]

clear value bet here. Pick a hand that can call a bet but you beat....what do you think they would call? I would target 99 and figure 1/2 pot is a good bet.

 

[boltonguy]

Sometimes they X the flush to induce expecting the more aggro players to blast the river with air ... if they always bet their flushes on turn they are exploitable.

 

[Legend5555]

Normally I wouldn't put up the next part so quickly, but I'm going to be away from my PC for a while and wanted to the get this part up for discussion so I can read what you all think while I'm away for a bit.

Preflop:
Hero in BB
Only 15 hands on the villain, so no reliable reads or stats. But given the general player pool, I assume he is a fairly normal villain. His early stats indicate he will likely be playing around a 25% Vpip and 18-20% PFR.

I think this preflop is pretty standard spot, but I'm going to include all decision points.

Hero calls. Sometimes Hero will 3 bet here, but in general would need more stats on villain. Players at the micros tend to defend to 3 bets a bit too much. Even more so when they have position. Which can get you into situations where you can end up dominated more than you would expect in a spot like this. Hero also tends to defend pretty wide from the BB against 2.5x or smaller opens, and 3! less often.

Hero calls.

Hero checks. Villain bets. Hero makes what he thinks is a pretty standard call. Hand is too strong to fold, to weak to raise, especially OOP.

Turn goes check check so picture not included. I don't think most people are going to claim betting turn makes any sense.

River.

Hero is keen on going for thin value in micro stakes as he feels people don't adjust to it very well. Hero bets just under 1/2 pot to target 88-TT and 7x. But then villain tanks for about 20 seconds and...

Hero?

 

[grebe]

fold. You went for value, you got told you are beat. Believe them.

 

[boltonguy]

From V's POV you called flop so you have something, either a J, 7 or 2 or a FD. Your turn X doesnt mean anything as you X your entire range in that spot so you could have made the flush - your turn X doesnt say anything about you having the flush or not. Then you bet a value-ish size which could be the flush and V raises. V isnt afraid of the flush here and you could have it as played IMHO. Fold.

This is why I'm X river here

 

[boltonguy]

So snowie had river as a mix, I put it in GTO+ and Jc9c is a pure river X

 

[grebe]

This is why I'm X river here

I am a firm believer in going for value whenever I think I am good. Lots of worse hands that will call here. Sometimes you lose....and if you don't sometimes lose when you value bet, you are missing too many opportunities when you are good.

 

[boltonguy]

If there wasnt a flush out there I would definitely go for thin value here.

 

[grebe]

Hero is keen on going for thin value in micro stakes as he feels people don't adjust to it very well. Hero bets just under 1/2 pot to target 88-TT and 7x. But then villain tanks for about 20 seconds and...

Just saw this sandwiched in there. I totally agree with this.

 

[LeLe]

Sometime in micro stake, causal people like to overvalue their hand strength and do re raise at the river and experienced player will check raise too sometime as they know their hand is not good enough to go to SD

With the way the action goes we are mostly right to value bet at the river thinking we are good in this hands

It 15bb more to call for a chance to win 35 bb so about 30% to call, i may call on this spot if this is early in the game as i will mostly CALL to check the vilian hand and take my stand against any future re-raise buff bet in the later session

 

[Legend5555]

Conclusion.

I was already thinking to myself before and after I bet what I would do if raised here. The super short answer is I already determined I was going to call because villain's line would look so ridiculous. Call it more experience and gut instinct than any real reasoning. Though I started thinking about it to try to come up with a real reason other than instinct.

While villain's SHOULD slowplay the flush here for this exact reason from time to time, I just find that it doesn't happen nearly often enough. Most players just double barrel with all their value and nut draws. Too often probably. So I thought any made flush would likely have bet the turn. And I thought any naked Ad would also double barrel quite frequently. And I just don't think enough players have it in them to raise this river with a set if they checked the turn. Maybe they would given my sizing from time to time. So unless he rivered the 45s, I just can't think of many value hands that really do this. He's not going to turn 88-TT into a bluff very often, if ever. Same for a 7x type hand. So it just feels he's too heavily weighted towards bluffs. Maybe I'm off base, but I really don't feel like I am.

So I pretty much snapped called.