PAHWM - $1/$2

Geremie

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Looking to get some thought from the community about this hand.

Playing 7-handed $1/$2 NL Hollywood Hold’em (hi only) with the normal crew. Essentially the same as hold’em except there is a third card in everyone’s hand face up and you can use all three from your hand.

This hand happened to be fairly early into the night. Most have bought in for $200 and there has been one reload so far.

Note: last card is the face up card

UTG $250ish — XX (low diamond)
UTG+1 $350ish — XX:9s:
Hijack $200ish —XX:qh:
Cutoff $200ish —XX:kd:
Dealer $400ish —XX (low heart)
SB (Hero) $275 —:jc::9d::9c:
BB $225ish — XX:8d:

UTG folds, +1 makes it $7 (this person has a fairly high VPIP and can be sticky), hijack/cutoff/dealer fold and action on Hero.
 

Frogzilla

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Fold pre? I mean, is there any reason to get involved deep OOP when we’ve got two card hands, one of our set outs is down, and the 9 of clubs is exposed (flush won’t be disguised)

I’ve never played Hollywood hold em but seems like position could be pretty important in a no limit 8 card game 150bb deep
 

Rhodeman77

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I probably fold this hand, Hero is out of position, a 9 is dead and V bet his hand seeing your 9 anyways. A King, Queen, and 8 that you would need for a possible straight are all dead. Villain could have monster like 8910sss 0r 910Jsss (none of his spades are gone) that can smash flops and be well hidden still.

Saying Hollwood is like Hold'em is a huge understatement, it is much closer to PLO with huge draws possible with 3 to a suite or straight in the hand,

when the board only needs 2 of a suite or 2 connected cards to make flush or straight you need to play much better hands preflop. Even full houses are possible without the board pairing.
 

DrStrange

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No idea what the rules are for Hollywood hold'em, I will offer an uninformed opinion.

I think this is a snap fold. Hero has a dead nine. Hero's straight draw is massively crippled - every up card we know of is a straight card missing from the deck. And hero holds the worst position if this game works like hold'em rather than stud. Hero has a so-so hand made worse by every consideration.

Just say no. The next hand will be better eventually -=- DrStrange
 

BGinGA

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Saying Hollwood is like Hold'em is a huge understatement error.
^ FYP.

Hollywood is like Super-Hold'em with an exposed card. Being able to play all three cards from your hand changes the game dramatically from regular hold'em.... straights are rarely good, and flushes can easily lose even if the board isn't paired.
 

Geremie

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I just mean that the layout and betting structure is the same as NLHE with the exception of the additional card face up and being able to use all 3.

Game play is vastly different.
 

Geremie

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I’ll move the action along. Seems like fold-pre is the consensus, but hero decided to take a flop this hand.

Hero adds $6 to the pot. BB comes along for $5.

Pot $21

UTG+1 $340 — XX:9s:
SB (Hero) $268 —:jc::9d::9c:
BB $215 — XX:8d:

Flop::4s::7d::9h:

Action on Hero
 

Rhodeman77

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Over bet the pot. $40 or $50. No straight or flush possible yet. Boats are hard to have. You almost certainly have the best hand but there are a lot of turn card that can change that and you have no way of knowing what draws they may have. Don’t give them a good price to hit a hand you can’t see.
 

BGinGA

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Over bet the pot. $40 or $50. No straight or flush possible yet. Boats are hard to have. You almost certainly have the best hand but there are a lot of turn card that can change that and you have no way of knowing what draws they may have. Don’t give them a good price to hit a hand you can’t see.
I disagree. I think that Hero should check.

There IS a straight out there (BB could have 568 or 356), and some full houses are possible (pocket 7s or pocket 4s for UTG+1). Either player could already have a 4-flush.

Hero would be checking even if he flopped a full house.
 
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Frogzilla

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Man, I totally disagree. I think it's highly unlikely that Hero's hand is best, and he should definitely check.

There IS a straight out there (BB could have 568), and UTG could already have a full house with any pocket pair with HIS trip nines (and almost certainly has a better kicker than Hero's Jack).

Only way Hero wins this pot is by hitting a Jack on the turn or river, and that won't even be enough if UTG+1 (the pre-flop raiser) has QQ, KK, or AA in the hole.

Even if Hero had flopped a boat here, he would be checking -- to give the other 9-holder a chance to hang himself.
There aren’t enough 9s in the deck for villain to also have trip 9s. Pretty easy check here to let villain continue betting. Seems like UTG1 is aggro and this is a clear cbet spot with a face up top pair. Check call and check raise both seem good...probably are close in EV
 

Frogzilla

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Thinking more about this. Interesting game. I’m leaning more and more to check raise, most of the turns are scary and it’s not good proposition of being OOP. Limit the incidence of OOP by winning some pots on the flop, limit the severity by lowering turn SPR.

check-raise it is
 

BGinGA

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With a probable pocket pair in hand, UTG+1 is certainly betting his two pair and likely jamming over any check-raise. With his nine, no way he can put Hero on 99, and he has redraws if he thinks Hero has 77 or 44.

I expect all the money to get in on the flop.
 

Coyote

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Barbarous games :D
I struggled to convince my crew relinquish that crap in favor of "true American poker" ie TX HE:LOL: :laugh:
 

Rhodeman77

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There are a few straights possible by BB, 8J10 being the best straight. Also a Spade or Diamond could give either of them a possible flush.

I’d rather bet and put pressure on hands than check call and have no idea if we are beat or not. If we get raised we can get away from the hand.

if we check are we planning on calling or folding?
 

Geremie

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Great discussion so far! Let’s move this along.

Hero checks.

Thoughts were pretty consistent with the above...leave the action to UTG+1 and we can re-pop. Hero feels very confident with the hand but still very cautious because of the game.

BB leads for $6. UTG+1 raises to $15.

Pot $42. Action on Hero.
 

DrStrange

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It is a little funny - - - I think two pair is a checking/folding sort of hand in super hold'em. Yet I see people planning on stacking off with it. It's ok, you can steal these little pots from me and once in a while I will get someone's whole stack. Two pair almost never wins a big pot at showdown. Monsters under the bed is a joke playing hold'em. However there ARE monsters lurking everywhere in super hold'em.

Top set on the other hand . . . . It can become a monster a lot easier than two pair. Holding a third card means three extra outs to the full house. Normally ten outs on the turn and thirteen outs on the river - something like 43% to fill up or make quads. But top set unimproved? That is often a loser as well if the betting gets fast.

Hero needs to get the party started. A check/raise plan is fine so long as Hero's villains cooperate. But Hero might have to bet his own hand vs some folks. Bet as big as will get called. If Hero is up against a made straight, so be it. He still has a lot of equity in his draw.

By the way, super hold'em plays great as a limit or low level spread limit game. You can proceed with a lot more hands and not get broken in one hand where two freak holdings land at the same time.

It isn't boring for sure -=- DrStrange

PS I just missed the wire. I think hero should raise. Let's try $45 to go.
 

Rhodeman77

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It is a little funny - - - I think two pair is a checking/folding sort of hand in super hold'em. Yet I see people planning on stacking off with it. It's ok, you can steal these little pots from me and once in a while I will get someone's whole stack. Two pair almost never wins a big pot at showdown. Monsters under the bed is a joke playing hold'em. However there ARE monsters lurking everywhere in super hold'em.

Top set on the other hand . . . . It can become a monster a lot easier than two pair. Holding a third card means three extra outs to the full house. Normally ten outs on the turn and thirteen outs on the river - something like 43% to fill up or make quads. But top set unimproved? That is often a loser as well if the betting gets fast.

Hero needs to get the party started. A check/raise plan is fine so long as Hero's villains cooperate. But Hero might have to bet his own hand vs some folks. Bet as big as will get called. If Hero is up against a made straight, so be it. He still has a lot of equity in his draw.

By the way, super hold'em plays great as a limit or low level spread limit game. You can proceed with a lot more hands and not get broken in one hand where two freak holdings land at the same time.

It isn't boring for sure -=- DrStrange

PS I just missed the wire. I think hero should raise. Let's try $45 to go.

I always feel good with the good Doctor is thinking the same way I am!
 

Coyote

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Even with one hole card showing, when 3 out of 3 hole cards are useable, some more restraint would be needed, like minimum 2 useable.
That's how it was played in Greece in the old days, at least.
 

Rhodeman77

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Hollywood 8 (hi/lo) is a staple in my mixed limit game rotation. It is a very good game that plays more like Stud 8 than Super Hold’em when played as a split pot game.
 

Kain8

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Fold pre, bring the hammer down with a checkraise and gambooool! (2 pints deep and counting on Father's Day at time of posting.)
 

Geremie

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Looking back I’m not sure if this was the correct play, but Hero opted to call the $15 rather than raise to try to limit the pot exploding at this point.

BB re-raises to $50. UTG+1 thinks for what felt like 2 minutes and reluctantly lets it go.

Action back to Hero ($35 to call). Hero has BB covered.

Pot $81.

SB (Hero) $253 —:jc::9d::9c:
BB $165 — XX:8d:

Flop::4s::7d::9h:
 

Geremie

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Let’s finish this off.

Hero shoved and BB snap called.

Was there any reason why Hero can get away from this instead of shoving?

UTG+1 revealed that he was holding JJ9 and made a great fold.

SB (Hero) —:jc::9d::9c:
BB —:5d::6d::8d:

Flop::4s::7d::9h:
 

warma

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When did you learn he had JJ9? When he folded or later?
 

DrStrange

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Folding preflop is hero's only exit ramp. Once Hero hits top set his equity is going to drive the action. Hero is almost a coin flip vs a made straight. He would have to have a rock solid read on villain to find a fold.

I haven't done the math, but I wonder if hero should continue even if villain tables his hand. There is a chunk of dead money in the pot plus three "bricks" are in villain's hand rather than in the deck. It seems pretty close.

Bottom line is these things happen in games like omaha and super holdem. Big confrontations on the flop between massive draws or made hands vs big draws. The question becomes, "do you play in high variance games?" Maybe the answer will be "no" for some people.

DrStrange
 

Geremie

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SB (Hero) —:jc::9d::9c:
BB —:5d::6d::8d:

Board::4s::7d::9h::js:
:6s:

So I took this down much to the frustration of UTG+1 who changed his tune with the turn card. BB still had the straight flush redraw but didn’t hit.

I think the slow play on the flop could have been disastrous if BB didn’t reraise and push UTG+1 out of the hand. I think that’s where I played this hand wrong (and maybe calling preflop).
 
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