Out of Turn Bet (1 Viewer)

[bradiggy]

Had this come up in a live game not too long ago, and its been bothering me for a while.

I'm heads up in a small hand, BB against the button. I flop top two pair. Action is on me, but the button decides to bet out of turn, gets his betting chips in past the line, and looks at me. Everybody knows he bet out of turn but nobody says anything, figuring life would go on.
Me, not thinking much of it and without memorable experience in a situation like this, decides to raise his bet (yes, changing the action). Almost instantly and without a word, the button grabs his chips and tosses his cards in the muck.

I look around confused, because I've basically always gone by the rule that any chips that pass the betting line are binding and in the pot. Dealer says, "Oh yeah, he bet out of turn, but you changed the action, so he can fold, call, or raise." He obviously chose to fold, and gets his bet back.

I indeed looked up the rules and that does appear to be correct, but doesn't this rule ruin any integrity of chips moving over the betting line? Would this be different in any other poker room? It seems like in a few, rare situations, this could be exploited as an angle shot.

 

[bradiggy]

(Maybe this was super common knowledge, but hopefully somebody who didn't know this, sees it and remembers it so they don't lose any value on a decent hand)

 

[CraigT78]

I had this happen in a casino, and I raised. The guy folded, got to keep his bet, as I changed the action. No idea if it was the right ruling or not.

 

[bradiggy]

I had this happen in a casino, and I raised. The guy folded, got to keep his bet, as I changed the action. No idea if it was the right ruling or not.

After reading the rules, I chalked it up to a +-$50ish lesson in poker, and a mistake I won't make again. But I really want to know if this is indeed the case at all poker rooms!

 

[Nanook]

Had this come up in a live game not too long ago, and its been bothering me for a while.

I'm heads up in a small hand, BB against the button. I flop top two pair. Action is on me, but the button decides to bet out of turn, gets his betting chips in past the line, and looks at me. Everybody knows he bet out of turn but nobody says anything, figuring life would go on.
Me, not thinking much of it and without memorable experience in a situation like this, decides to raise his bet (yes, changing the action). Almost instantly and without a word, the button grabs his chips and tosses his cards in the muck.

I look around confused, because I've basically always gone by the rule that any chips that pass the betting line are binding and in the pot. Dealer says, "Oh yeah, he bet out of turn, but you changed the action, so he can fold, call, or raise." He obviously chose to fold, and gets his bet back.

I indeed looked up the rules and that does appear to be correct, but doesn't this rule ruin any integrity of chips moving over the betting line? Would this be different in any other poker room? It seems like in a few, rare situations, this could be exploited as an angle shot.

It's the correct ruling, but like you said there are some potential angle shooting possibilities here.

The rule is that if the action changes, it's as if he did nothing. If you had either called or said "hey wait a second, you acted out of turn" then you say I check, now his bet is required and if you now want to raise he is stuck in there. Obviously he could still fold, but now you at least get his initial bet.

There are ways to out angle the angle shooter, but it REALLY helps to know the rules

 

[davislane]

This seems like a massive way to angle. Bet should stand IMO. Its the players responsibility to keep track of the action. Makes it more sick because they have positional advantage and can pull these stunts.

 

[horseshoez]

Depending on the social aspect of the game and to keep it civil, this is the order in which I do things and have found it works 99% of the time:

1) I don’t touch my chips or act as I’m going to bet

2) I point out to the dealer then the player that he acted out of turn

3) dealer should inform the player to move his chips back until it comes around to him

4) I make my move and then wait for him to make his move

I realize it’s not always that simple to handle this type of situation but I find it’s the least confrontational one when you just negate his move entirely and start from scratch on that round of betting. If it’s repetitive it’s a different story but I always like to give my players the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake.

 

[jpietrella]

Is it the correct ruling though? In order for you to raise his bet, the initial action is still you checking. Assuming you confirm the check, his bet still stands and then you raise. A change in your action would be a bet ahead of his.

My ruling would be the initial bet stands and it's a raise to him.

 

[horseshoez]

This is why I like to always ask about the setting prior to offering my input. All depends on the type of game, a habitual move by the player acting out of turn or not, etc. I don’t always like to slam down the gavel and say, “well in Vegas...”

 

[judgeanjury]

This ruling happened at a casino game I was in. Three ways to the flop. First guy raises. I'm next to act, I have 3 of a kind, so obviously calling or raising but the guy next to me acts out of turn and goes all in. I wait a second because I know if this "change the action" rule so I ask the dealer if I call does his bet stand? Dealer hesitates then refuses to answer so I call the floor and ask the same question. I don't know why but the floor refuses to answer and simply says it is your action so choose what to do. So I just call. Floor rules the all in stands. I don't know why but the first to act guy goes all in as well. Seriously dude you saw me give a stink you should know I have a good hand. So in the end I call both all ins and take the pot.

Glad I knew the rule but weird that the dealer and floor refused to tell me the rules till after I acted.

 

[bradiggy]

This is why I like to always ask about the setting prior to offering my input. All depends on the type of game, a habitual move by the player acting out of turn or not, etc. I don’t always like to slam down the gavel and say, “well in Vegas...”

Live 1/3NL game at Horseshoe Tunica. I would have been considered an outsider, with all other players at table "Locals." I'll be clear in that I don't believe this guy was intentionally angling me, I just wanted to shed light on the rule and make sure everybody is clear on it!

Is it the correct ruling though? In order for you to raise his bet, the initial action is still you checking. Assuming you confirm the check, his bet still stands and then you raise. A change in your action would be a bet ahead of his.

My ruling would be the initial bet stands and it's a raise to him.

Interesting point, if I 'check', his bet would stand, and then in theory the action would be back on me - at which point I could raise.

 

[davislane]

This ruling happened at a casino game I was in. Three ways to the flop. First guy raises. I'm next to act, I have 3 of a kind, so obviously calling or raising but the guy next to me acts out of turn and goes all in. I wait a second because I know if this "change the action" rule so I ask the dealer if I call does his bet stand? Dealer hesitates then refuses to answer so I call the floor and ask the same question. I don't know why but the floor refuses to answer and simply says it is your action so choose what to do. So I just call. Floor rules the all in stands. I don't know why but the first to act guy goes all in as well. Seriously dude you saw me give a stink you should know I have a good hand. So in the end I call both all ins and take the pot.

Glad I knew the rule but weird that the dealer and floor refused to tell me the rules till after I acted.

did you win the hand?

 

[Nanook]

.......I wait a second because I know if this "change the action" rule so I ask the dealer if I call does his bet stand? Dealer hesitates then refuses to answer so I call the floor and ask the same question. I don't know why but the floor refuses to answer and simply says it is your action so choose what to do. So I just call. Floor rules the all in stands. I don't know why but the first to act guy goes all in as well. Seriously dude you saw me give a stink you should know I have a good hand. So in the end I call both all ins and take the pot.

Glad I knew the rule but weird that the dealer and floor refused to tell me the rules till after I acted.

They may have been hesitant to answer because of the 3rd guy in the pot and the potential to influence his decision. Not sure, but I do think that if you asked them to explain the rule rather than asking what would happen they would have explained the rule before making you act. At least if I was the floor in this situation I would have explained the rule.

 

[Omar65]

Interesting read here. At first I was like, "no way that bet stands!" then after reading the responses and how it could have worked it makes sense. Then it dawned on my I had a similar situation happen to me (but I was the guy taking the bet back) at a single table satellite at the Rio years ago.
It was early in the satellite so probably 9-10 handed still. This was preflop, there were what I thought a couple/3 limps and when it came to me I limped also. The dealer said it had been raised to $X (can't remember the details, it was long ago), but I had recently read that if there was action ahead of you that "changed the action" and you didn't see it or didn't realize it, you could pull your bet (in this case a PF call), back. I'm sure I some middling hand and did just that. (I do remember some dude that looked like he lived on the street was taking his shirt off at the table - he literally did not have a shirt on - and this distracted me from the action ahead of me). Anyway, the dealer and half the table said "you can't pull your bet back". Since I had just read about this exact scenario and thought I was right, I asked for the floor and they immediately confirmed I was right and could pull the bet back.

The OP situation was little different of course as far as context, but I think the same rule is being applied, so it makes sense. The only difference was the potential for playing an angle in the OP situation versus I plain didn't pay attention to the action in front of me.

 

[Frogzilla]

Yes his bet does not stand (so actually the correct ruling) but as described, this is almost certainly an angle. Had I fell victim to this I would be exceptionally hostile and belligerent until that asshole leaves

 

[Mojo1312]

It's the correct ruling, but like you said there are some potential angle shooting possibilities here.

The rule is that if the action changes, it's as if he did nothing. If you had either called or said "hey wait a second, you acted out of turn" then you say I check, now his bet is required and if you now want to raise he is stuck in there. Obviously he could still fold, but now you at least get his initial bet.

There are ways to out angle the angle shooter, but it REALLY helps to know the rules

^^ Worth reiterating. The above is exactly how this situation should be handled by the player who was skipped.

This type of angle-shooting is effective because it can be brushed off as an innocent mistake. In many cases, the action is a deliberate way of trying to steal the pot or finding out where said player stands in a hand.

Again, this is a sly way of getting information, especially from unknowns or inexperienced players. You are outfoxing the fox when you coolly do the above.

 

[moose]

Interesting read here. At first I was like, "no way that bet stands!" then after reading the responses and how it could have worked it makes sense. Then it dawned on my I had a similar situation happen to me (but I was the guy taking the bet back) at a single table satellite at the Rio years ago.
It was early in the satellite so probably 9-10 handed still. This was preflop, there were what I thought a couple/3 limps and when it came to me I limped also. The dealer said it had been raised to $X (can't remember the details, it was long ago), but I had recently read that if there was action ahead of you that "changed the action" and you didn't see it or didn't realize it, you could pull your bet (in this case a PF call), back. I'm sure I some middling hand and did just that. (I do remember some dude that looked like he lived on the street was taking his shirt off at the table - he literally did not have a shirt on - and this distracted me from the action ahead of me). Anyway, the dealer and half the table said "you can't pull your bet back". Since I had just read about this exact scenario and thought I was right, I asked for the floor and they immediately confirmed I was right and could pull the bet back.

The OP situation was little different of course as far as context, but I think the same rule is being applied, so it makes sense. The only difference was the potential for playing an angle in the OP situation versus I plain didn't pay attention to the action in front of me.

Not the same rule. If you substantially misunderstand the action you may take your bet back. Eg it is on you and you verbally state call but didn't know that a player had gone all-in.

The situation of a player acting out of turn is easily solved if op had thought to check first. Then the action is on the player who bet out of turn and his action then becomes binding. Then you are free to raise.

 

[upNdown]

Not the same rule. If you substantially misunderstand the action you may take your bet back. Eg it is on you and you verbally state call but didn't know that a player had gone all-in.

It’s worth mentioning that when it comes to this rule, it’s definitely an exception. In fact I’ve never seen this ruling made. But countless times, I’ve seen somebody do exactly what @Omar65 described, and they’ve been given the option to call the action they missed, or forfeit their limp.
@Omar65, it sounds like you might have had a misunderstanding of the rules, and just got lucky with a nice floor man.

 

[bradiggy]

It’s worth mentioning that when it comes to this rule, it’s definitely an exception. In fact I’ve never seen this ruling made. But countless times, I’ve seen somebody do exactly what @Omar65 described, and they’ve been given the option to call the action they missed, or forfeit their limp.
@Omar65, it sounds like you might have had a misunderstanding of the rules, and just got lucky with a nice floor man.

I'd second that experience at basically every cash game I've been in. Player limps after somebody raised, that limp money stays in the pot or you complete the bet to match the raised amount.

That's how I expected my situation to go - player who raised out of turn gets to match my bet, or forfeit his chips that are already past the betting line. Again, expensive lesson on the rules of the game! Honestly, if I had raised out of turn, I don't think I'd have the balls to grab my chips back from past the betting line, something about it seems wrong.

 

[horseshoez]

There’s also this solution below. Not that it should come back to me, but just a suggestion for how to possible handle this kind of scenario,

 

[moose]

It’s worth mentioning that when it comes to this rule, it’s definitely an exception. In fact I’ve never seen this ruling made. But countless times, I’ve seen somebody do exactly what @Omar65 described, and they’ve been given the option to call the action they missed, or forfeit their limp.
@Omar65, it sounds like you might have had a misunderstanding of the rules, and just got lucky with a nice floor man.

Most casinos, especially for tournaments will follow the concept of 'accepted action'. As in, the responsibility falls on the player to follow the action and any mistakes are your responsibility. This is presumably because there is a dealer who is properly controlling and announcing the action as it occurs.

https://www.pokernewsdaily.com/a-wsop-lesson-in-accepted-action-33003/

However if you are following RRoP then this is the applicable rule:

Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has
taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some
protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is
obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has
been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and
Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet
to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A
bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems
reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The
decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A
possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if
the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

 

[BGinGA]

The rule is that if the action changes, it's as if he did nothing. If you had either called or said "hey wait a second, you acted out of turn" then you say I check, now his bet is required and if you now want to raise he is stuck in there. Obviously he could still fold, but now you at least get his initial bet.

^^ This. You should merely state, "First action is on me -- I check. Your premature bet stands."

Then look at the opponent as his face turns white (or maybe red). After the dealer confirms, then raise away.

 

[Nanook]

^^ This. You should merely state, "First action is on me -- I check. Your premature bet stands."

Then look at the opponent as his face turns white (or maybe red). After the dealer confirms, then raise away.

I like this way of doing it best.

 

[AWenger]

I'll be clear in that I don't believe this guy was intentionally angling me, I just wanted to shed light on the rule and make sure everybody is clear on it!

decides to raise his bet (yes, changing the action). Almost instantly and without a word, the button grabs his chips and tosses his cards in the muck.

With the speed that he pulled his chips back, he's almost certainly intentionally angling you.

But thanks for bringing it up for discussion and to shed some light. It's certainly something new players need to learn. I've faced an out of turn bets many times in a home game, but it's usually because the other players don't realize I'm first to act. I can't recall a single time where the other player got raised and pulled their bet back. So the other player at your table is doing something slimy, not against the rules, but slimy.

But also, I've learned over the years that if someone else bets out of turn when it's my turn to act first, I just first need to say "check" or tap the table to intention to the dealer to know I check, and then that players bet becomes binding.

Interesting point, if I 'check', his bet would stand, and then in theory the action would be back on me - at which point I could raise.

The situation of a player acting out of turn is easily solved if op had thought to check first. Then the action is on the player who bet out of turn and his action then becomes binding. Then you are free to raise.

^^ This.

Another angle I've learned how to react to over the years is if at showdown, other players announce their hand out loud as, "Two Pair", or "Straight", which beats your hand, but they don't show it right away, is to NOT muck your cards, but either make them show or just go ahead and show your hand, and force them to show a better hand.

Years ago, I was a fairly new player in a home game when this weird hand happened. I don't remember the exact hand, but it was something like this: I had pocket 4s, and the board was some middle-to-low cards, and about 4 players called either the flop or the turn, but it was checked around after that and on the river, the board paired -- lets say the board was 8 6 5 2 8 or something like that. At showdown, after everyone checked the river, someone confidently announced "two pair" -- and the two other players folded; I assumed I was beat too, and almost threw my cards in, but I noticed the other player hadn't shown his cards. I kept my cards and then when he didn't show, I turned my hand face up -- and turns out I was good -- the other player then showed he had pocket 3s. So he wasn't lying when he said he had "two pair", but he was faking confidence and was hoping other people might fold a better hand.

Apparently someone in the game spoke to him about it after the game, and at the next game, the "two pair"-announcing player apologized to me saying it probably crossed a line and could have been considered an angle shoot, and he said he realized he was wrong to do that. It was a very nice gesture and act on his part considering I was a new player to the group. I played in that game dozens of times thereafter.

 

[Percy7]

It seems like angling. A mistake maybe but he’s certainly not inexperienced The idea of pulling my chips back after they crossed wouldn’t have seemed a possibility to mean when a was a little more green.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The ruling was technically correct based on how things had gone to that point, but the dealer really should have stopped the out-of-turn bet and clarified what your options are at that point.

I hate this angle-shooting shit. People who do it should be warned once and then ejected from the game. Sometimes people bet out of turn by accident, and that's not a big deal if you correct it, but this guy clearly did this on purpose to undermine the fairness of the game.

 

[Omar65]

It’s worth mentioning that when it comes to this rule, it’s definitely an exception. In fact I’ve never seen this ruling made. But countless times, I’ve seen somebody do exactly what @Omar65 described, and they’ve been given the option to call the action they missed, or forfeit their limp.
@Omar65, it sounds like you might have had a misunderstanding of the rules, and just got lucky with a nice floor man.

Ahh, could be then. I was viewing the ruling as essentially being the same as the OP situation but just a different scenario. In my game, I hve been allowing a player whom did not see a raise that only called the prior bet to take back their call if they wanted to. It's a casual game and doesn't happen often, but it has happened. No biggie, but good to know/learn the correct way to manage such things.

 

[mattross1313]

Some good information in here, thanks.

I have a similar question for the guru's, this has happened a few times at our local pub league and I'm not sure of the correct path.
Each time the more experienced player in our group has somewhat loudly given 'the rule' and folks just agree and move on.

Example:
Flop Action is on me.
Before I make a decision player to my left makes a bet of 4xBB.
Chaos ensues as everyone has an opinion on what to do.

Our experienced player says that if I then make a minimum bet 1xBB it closes the action and the player who acted out of turn cannot raise further. He has to call and we all see the turn?

From other posts and depending on the game location if I was to check then his bets stands. But curious to know what folks think.

 

[moose]

Some good information in here, thanks.

I have a similar question for the guru's, this has happened a few times at our local pub league and I'm not sure of the correct path.
Each time the more experienced player in our group has somewhat loudly given 'the rule' and folks just agree and move on.

Example:
Flop Action is on me.
Before I make a decision player to my left makes a bet of 4xBB.
Chaos ensues as everyone has an opinion on what to do.

Our experienced player says that if I then make a minimum bet 1xBB it closes the action and the player who acted out of turn cannot raise further. He has to call and we all see the turn?

No that's silly. You can't 'force' anyone into a different bet. If you bet he can do anything he wants. If you check then his out of turn bet stays.

 

[BGinGA]

Some good information in here, thanks.

I have a similar question for the guru's, this has happened a few times at our local pub league and I'm not sure of the correct path.
Each time the more experienced player in our group has somewhat loudly given 'the rule' and folks just agree and move on.

Example:
Flop Action is on me.
Before I make a decision player to my left makes a bet of 4xBB.
Chaos ensues as everyone has an opinion on what to do.

Our experienced player says that if I then make a minimum bet 1xBB it closes the action and the player who acted out of turn cannot raise further. He has to call and we all see the turn?

From other posts and depending on the game location if I was to check then his bets stands. But curious to know what folks think.

Your 'experienced' player is incorrect.

If you check, the previous premature bet is still valid. If you wager any amount -- even 1BB -- it changes the action and the previous premature bet is no longer valid. He can fold, call, or raise your bet.