online short handed PLO8 roast my line

grebe

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Playing .25/.5 PLO8 5 handed on bovada. Table is playing pretty loose, with 1 player in particular that is playing super loose aggressive and I have a tag on him to get in stacks with him. Did it once, he rivered a magic card to scoop. He is not involved in this hand though. I am stuck $80 right now, $50 from that hand. Still feel like I have an edge in this game though. All relative stacks in this hand are $50 +/- $1

UTG: limps
SB: Raise $1.5
BB (Hero) calls with :2h::jh::tc::8h:
UTG: Calls
POT: $4.5

FLOP: :3h::th::9s:
SB: check
BB (Hero): bet $2
UTG: call $2
SB: fold

TURN: :2s:

Hero?
 

grebe

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Im just going to post up the rest, since I did say roast my line....

Hero leads for $4.04 (1/2 pot)...I have the hearts (non-nut) and I have the straight draw plus two pair. I am thinking I am in good shape. Pot is probably a better bet here.

V: raises POT ($20.20)

Hero: re-raise all-in. ($26.30)

Reasoning: I can't think of anything V has that has me in bad shape. Even with TT (which I block, but is the nuts right now), I have straights and flushes. If he has a low draw, he can still hit it with one of my outs and I win half at least. If he has nut flush, I block that with my 3 hearts, and have 2 pair as a backup.

Results:

River: :9c:

V takes it down with :4c::4h::9h::ac:

This might be a bad beat results oriented story, or I might have a serious flaw in my reasoning. Let's hear it!
 

grebe

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Against his exact hand, I got it in good I think. Still don't know about my reasoning....but at least I have that going for me, which is nice.


plo8.JPG
 

grebe

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If you’re playing 08, why are you calling a raise with virtual trash? You’re putting yourself in a tough starting position.
Fair question. Below is my reasoning...which I will not say is correct, but it's what I was thinking at the moment.

1. It's 5 handed
2. with the action player at the table, people were playing wider than a normal table, and much more aggressive than normal.
3. BB discount with suited connectors. My plan was to check/fold if I didnt rock the flop. (SB checking flop made me think a little aggression would take it down, plus I had many blockers to nutted hands)
 

shorticus

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First, I apologize for my wording as it could be considered demeaning and it was not intended to be. Was actually coming back to edit my response before I saw yours.

Perhaps you should consider reviewing PLO starting hands.

I understand expanding your range slightly in short handed play but this is a little much especially against a raise. Flop isn’t really a strong one for you as you could literally be crushed. Turn is worse and only gives you 3 clean outs.

The importance of starting hand selection in PLO cannot be underestimated in my opinion.
 

grebe

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First, I apologize for my wording as, it could be considered demeaning and it was not intended to be. Was actually coming back to edit my response before I saw yours.

Perhaps you should consider reviewing PLO starting hands.

I understand expanding your range slightly in short handed play but this is a little much especially against a raise. Flop isn’t really a strong one for you as
I posted because I wanted feedback on my reasoning. I am SURE I could have waited for a better spot.

No apology necessary.
 

DrStrange

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I wish the OP had left time for discussion at the decision points. The turn check/raise seems like the key moment in the hand and we just blow past it.

My first thought was the hand is played on an ultra-short three player table, but as I reviewed the original post I found it to be a five player table. I had started thinking I knew little of hand ranges for three handed PLO8. Even there I had reservations for Hero's preflop call. And in a way, this is still a three player table. CO & button folded after all.

I don't like Hero's hand. His only hope for low is an "emergency low". Hero's prospects for high are better than for low, but highly dependent on hitting the flop. I see preflop as a fold. lets not forget UTG is still in the hand and could take a limp/3-bet line, which would be really unwelcome.

Once Hero sees the flop, his hand improves greatly. Flush draw, straight draw, top pair makes for a lot of equity in a three handed game - plus no low draw beyond runner-runner. The turn gives Hero even more high hand equity but also exposes Hero the risk of a chop.

I think the flop should be pot, not half pot. Hero is going to price in a lot of low style hands. i.e. the villain isn't making a mistake to peel a card.

Same thing with the turn, pot is better than half pot. The check / raise line from villain is unwelcome. Hero could be on the wrong side of the high - say villain has a set. But Hero likely still has the better of it on the high side. I think Hero has to go along for the ride, but I would like to see what the better PLO8 players have to say.

It is a lot harder to fairly discuss Hero's line once we know the outcome of the hand -=- DrStrange
 

FDLmold

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With two people already in the pot, fold pre. Our highest card is a J, our best low is hoping for A-3-4 in the up cards, and are we really happy with 2-8 there? For half the pot?

Even short handed, PLO8 you want a hand with scoop potential. Throw this trash away. It's worth playing for free if SB just completes it instead of raising of course, but after the raise, put it in the muck.
 

LotsOfChips

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Not a PLO8 expert but...

PF - FOLD! Even short handed this is a pretty marginal (actually crappy) starting hand. At best you MIGHT get half pot, more likely you will lose it all.

Flop - Caution - proceed carefully! Yes, you have a SD and FD, but neither of them are for the nuts. Similarly your shot at low hand (8) is sketchy at best. Your 2 pair, even though it is TP, is a recipe for shoveling money into a set. I probably wouldn't have called V's Pot bet (which turned out to be a bluff), but once you decided to play, you pretty much had to jam the last $6.

Bottom line - post flop you were a coin toss (ahead, but not by much) on this hand. If you continue to get all your money in the pot on coin tosses, you are gambling, not playing with an edge. Lots of people are okay with tossing coins for pots, so maybe you're one of those players. But IMO it would be better to wait for opportunities where you have a better edge.

Edit, ok, not actually a coin toss, as you probably have somewhat better equity. But still there seems to be just as much likelihood of V making low for a split or catching a set to scoop as you taking the whole pot.
 
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Moxie Mike

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Playing .25/.5 PLO8 5 handed on bovada. Table is playing pretty loose, with 1 player in particular that is playing super loose aggressive and I have a tag on him to get in stacks with him. Did it once, he rivered a magic card to scoop. He is not involved in this hand though. I am stuck $80 right now, $50 from that hand. Still feel like I have an edge in this game though. All relative stacks in this hand are $50 +/- $1

UTG: limps
SB: Raise $1.5
BB (Hero) calls with :2h::jh::tc::8h:
UTG: Calls
POT: $4.5

FLOP: :3h::th::9s:
SB: check
BB (Hero): bet $2
UTG: call $2
SB: fold

TURN: :2s:

Hero?
@DrStrange & @FDLmold already sufficiently outlined why this is a fold pre. I wanted to discuss a couple other quick things though...

OP's opening paragraph contains information about a seemingly irrelevant opponent (to this hand) and being stuck 1.65 buy ins on the session. It's not immediately clear to me why this was discussed or how it affects this hand. Is the OP implying that being stuck and possibly on tilt from a bad runout somehow affect decision making in this situation? Please advise.

Shorthanded tables obviously skew starting hand requirements, but defining such requires some experimentation. That said, starting hands that have a strong proclivity to making what @Anthony Martino might call 'super sexy second-best hands' are just as problematic in short handed games as they are at FR.

In PLO8, it's different than in games like PLO or NLHE with respect to short-handedness. In non-split-pot games, non-nuttedness proportionately goes up in value the less players at the table. But in split pot games, the 'hi' value of your starting hand and the 'lo' value of starting hands sort of cut into each other equity-wise since so many pots are split.

In PLO8, hands like A-2-x-x are strong yet vulnerable to get quartered... which is a disaster in a big-bet game. But the more short-handed the table, the less likely you are to run into another A-2 hand. So I encourage OP to think in terms of 'how likely is this hand to hold up for at least 1/2 the pot' when evaluating starting hands.
 

Anthony Martino

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I don't play much PLO8, let alone short-handed games

But the hand you're calling a raise with out of position is straight trash

It would be in PLO and more so in PLO8

It's going to make a lot of 2nd best hands and you're OOP so another disadvantage

The OP reads to me like a player frustrated and tilting, and playing way too wide

Tighten your hands up, bad opponents and short-handed play doesn't mean to beat them you must become them
 

Chippy McChiperson

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Agreed you should waaaaaaaay tighten up your starting hand range, even from the button. It’s just a horrible starting hand. You want to play hands you can scoop with, and there are very limited boards out there that you know you have the nuts with. Even on a 97x board you’re likely splitting with a low.

edited to add I misread and thought you had the button, you’re in the BB which is even worse. I know you feel you got unlucky on the river, but the runout prior was one of a very few you could feel good about.
 

grebe

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Please advise.
Nothing could tilt me as much as this line. This is what my HR representatives say when they want me to do their job for them. You can make fun of my family, kick my dog....just dont ask me to "please advise."
 

Rhodeman77

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As other have already said very well, this hand is an auto fold preflop. With no way to make even an emergency low and limited high potential you are burning money calling with it.

there are definitely playable high only hands in PLO8, hands like AKKQ, AKQJ, AAJT, etc. hands that can smash a flop with 2 high cards in it.

otherwise the standard line of don’t play without an Ace and some other wheel card is pretty standard for PLO8.
 
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