Nano Stakes Player Complaints (2 Viewers)

Frogzilla

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Players are frustrated with their opponents actions? I wouldn’t bother educating the opponents and convincing them to play a different style. I would point out that everyone has exactly 0 control over how their opponents play, and being frustrated over that is stupid
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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So, are small bets in fixed limit raise amounts the BB and the big bet is double the BB? And the big bet is for the turn and river?

I read somewhere that in limit, it's nice to have a rack of workhorse chips per player, is that true?

Man, that means I have to make a limit set huh?:unsure:

Unless I made it pot limit to kind of help? I almost feel like doing the math of "how much is pot" with that group would get annoying, so fixed limit is probably best? Hmm.
 

timinater

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I’d give spread limit with a cap a try. Something like bet/raises to a max of $5, and cap of $20 on any one street? You could even cap the pot at an amount per person too.

Might need to adjust the amounts to suit but I’m guessing this crew wants the “big bet” style games but can’t quite find the fold button often enough.

Sounds counter intuitive, but you could up the max buy-in as well. $20 isn’t even 100bb… getting short relative to the going rate of opens etc can encourages jams over these larger opens.

Given enough time they’ll smarten up… maybe.
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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I think I finally understand limit breakdowns now that I've sat down to read a little more. I dont know why I was having such a hard time grasping what everyone was trying to tell me.

So I could do a 2/4 chip game with blinds of 25c/50c

900x 25c
100x $5's? Or $25s?

Buy in of 25 big bets would be $25, a rack of workhorse chips per player 9 handed?
 

davislane

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I think I finally understand limit breakdowns now that I've sat down to read a little more. I dont know why I was having such a hard time grasping what everyone was trying to tell me.

So I could do a 2/4 chip game with blinds of 25c/50c

900x 25c
100x $5's? Or $25s?

Buy in of 25 big bets would be $25, a rack of workhorse chips per player 9 handed?
$5s. usually the big chips are 20-25x the small chips. you could add a barrel of $25s for backup.
 
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SteveEH

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I think I finally understand limit breakdowns now that I've sat down to read a little more. I dont know why I was having such a hard time grasping what everyone was trying to tell me.

So I could do a 2/4 chip game with blinds of 25c/50c

900x 25c
100x $5's? Or $25s?

Buy in of 25 big bets would be $25, a rack of workhorse chips per player 9 handed?

Yes that would be a .50/$1 (2/4 chip) limit game with .25/.50 blinds. Everyone starts with 25 big bets which is a rack of quarters.

I think the rebuy chip denoms are supposed to be = to a barrel if the workhorse chips, in your case $5.
 

davislane

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If you go with non denominated chips for your limit set you can adjust the stakes without affecting the playability of your set for 2chip/4chip games.

you are probably best playing 10c/20c limit or 20c/40c if you are going to play 2/4.
25c/50c could be annoying with chips worth 12.5c each.
 

BGinGA

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1. Raise the stakes significantly.
2. Send me an invite.

Seriously, I doubt that your action junkies will be happy playing fixed limit (any stakes) or even spread-limit with a cap. I'd stick to just offering low-cost NLHE tournaments, where they can get their action fix for a cheap price, over and over.
 

CrazyEddie

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I just want my friends to enjoy themselves.
I play at the casino 1-2 times a week and have 3 other home games I play in a week as well. I get enough "competitive" poker to sate me.
I dont want to use this group for profit at all and don't mind losing multiple bullets here. How do I make sure they have the best time?

This is commendable and is the right attitude to have for the social game you're hosting.

Your friends are terrible at poker. They will always be terrible at poker, because they don't understand poker. But they're having fun, mostly, so as long as you're having fun too by all means let them continue to be terrible.

Reading your list of complaints closely, it seems the root of the issue is that they want to play big bet poker but are frustrated when they lose big bet poker amounts of money. They want to bet $5 over 25-cent blinds but get upset when they lose a $20 buy-in and have to rebuy. This, honestly, is a perfectly natural reaction from people who don't understand poker.

Raising the stakes won't make them play better; they'll just be angry that they're losing more money or running out of buy-ins faster.

Lowering the stakes won't save their bankroll; whether the blinds are 25c or 10c they'll keep betting a dollar because it's just a dollar.

Switching to limit won't make them happy, because they like making big bets. (although... see below)

I think your best option is simply to keep them out of cash games. Play tournaments so that nobody spends more than one buy-in per game. Play sit-and-go turbo double-or-nothing games so that nobody has to sit out for very long and so you can play several games in an evening. Make each game a no-rebuy freezeout so that nobody feels like they have to drop a bunch of money on rebuys just to keep playing. They'll go hog wild playing terrible poker in super-gambly situations and I'm sure everyone will be excited and having fun.

Alternately: Give limit poker a try. You can counter their "but it's not real poker if I can't go all-in" or whatever with the following ideas: Set the stakes structure so that it's a 4-chip / 8-chip game, so that each bet feels like it's big because each bet is a lot of chips. Play some simple circus games, like Crazy Pineapple and 3-Hand Hold'em and Double-Board Hold'em and Super Hold'em, games that are easy to understand how to play but which have fun and interesting extra features; it'll make them feel very smart because they're making clever moves. Maybe even change the structure from the normal small-bet/big-bet to a small bet preflop, big bet on the flop and turn, and double-big-bet on the river just so that it feels like a lot of money is going in the pot, even though they're still protected from losing their entire stack all at once.

If limit poker and circus games are a hit, you could introduce more games if they seem open to new things. Maybe try draw or stud if they show any interest in trying something different. Maybe avoid Omaha, they'll just get confused about how many cards they can play.

One thing to note: some of their complaints are "he beat me with garbage" even though they're playing garbage themselves. There's nothing to do here about this one. This is just a sign that they're irrational gamblers; that's part and parcel of any gambling game. They'll be happy when they win and they'll bitch and moan when they lose, blaming everything from the dealer to the phase of the moon but especially how badly everyone else played. Use tournaments and fixed-limit to make sure nobody loses too much at once, and play swingy gambly games so that everyone gets to feel like a winner now and then.

Good luck, and I hope you and your friends all keep having fun.
 

PARADOX

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Hey everyone! Hope you are having a wonderful day today.

I have an interesting few gripes and complaints from my Sunday nano stakes players. Since I believe that listening to your players is one of the most important parts of hosting, I wanted to ask you all for your opinions on how to properly handle these complaints.

Note that these players are all very casual, are not versed in poker etiquette, lingo, strategy, etc. It's a VERY casual group of people. Because of this, I have a hard time explaining some things to them. I constantly am having to remind people of blinds, tell people to stop reaching for the pot when its not pushed to them, splashing the pot, acting out of turn, etc. They like to play cards as a way to see each other once a week and socialize, which I dont mind at all. When they complain about poker and other player's play, it does make me giggle a little.

We play a one table $10 tournament first and the go into a 10c/25c cash game after. They still go crazy and play weird during the tournament, but they seem to behave more during that portion than in cash. They all last wayyy longer in the tournament.

So, I'll list off their complaints and delve into them in more detail after.
  1. Some hate how the cash game we do lasts forever and people just buy in multiple times constantly. This player also is the one who bought in ~10 times in one night and was close to not playing any more. People blow through their stacks in cash for some reason.
  2. They do not like buy ins of more than $20. When people lose 2-3 buy ins, they are very upset. And after the night we had a $200+ pot I scooped in a 4 way all in (My set of 9's vs a weak paired Ace and two straight draws), they talked about lowering stakes even more so we don't have a night like that again. One player folded the winning hand QX preflop when I 3 bet to some large number. She was so angry she took a break.
  3. Many of them complain that raising does nothing, as a standard 3x/4x raise gets calls from every player at the table. Most of which all have marginal garbage. We had an open to $1, call, Raise to $5.50 and 5 players all called. The best hand was a weak pair of queens... Other hands, a 3x raise gets everyone to fold, or a $1 bet on the flop gets folds, where a $4 bet wont. SOme people will open to $3-$5 pre in this 10c/25c game and get multiple callers.
  4. Within a few hands, we already have 100BB+ pots, and players on the flop are betting like $5 in a 10c/25c game with 92. I love this part of the game personally, but they hate parts of it.
  5. People keep any two cards and either get mad they are beaten by garbage (when they, in fact, also are playing garbage all the time), or get mad that their garbage didnt win and for some reason criticize other's play.
  6. Some will lose their first bullet and stop playing if they are felted. Rarely will some buy in more than twice.


I don't know how to please them. They want to play for fun (nothing wrong with that period) and for low stakes, but are the most fearless people at the same time. They are very spewy players that just fire huge barrels at each other.




In hand 2 of the night, we had 2 players chop up a huge pot and they both doubled up from it.

That game is so swingy, we had one guy buy in twice within the first 20-30 minutes.
One night at these stakes, I bought in for $40 total and walked away with $384

In the 2nd to last hand, I had AA, Raised to $4 to punish the calling stations and get all the dead money in the middle. I get a call
Board is :8h: :8d: :2c:. I C bet, get a call. Turn is the :7c:, I have less than a pot sized bet left, I shove and get called by :9h: :2d: and double up...

We had a board of 7QJQJ and the guy with pockets 8's is firing huge barrels all 3 streets, I have no idea why the other players made it to the river to begin with, One guy was chasing a runner runner straight and didn't get there.

People will call 50BB shoves with middle pair and then get mad that they are beaten so far by top pair, but then yell and cheer when their 5 shows up on the turn for 2 pair.




I feel like alot of these issues are problems the players put themselves in.
-They play wayyy to many hands, calling bets all the time and bleed chips, then wonder why their stack is halfway gone already in the span of a button rotation.
-They don't think of raises in terms of big blinds or anything, they think "It's just a dollar" and go along with it.
-They chase everything, and I mean everything. I have bottom pair with J3? I'll float two streets for my jack...lololol
-They don't understand bet sizing. Watching them fire $5 bets at each other with middle pair is very entertaining, but again, they play for stacks and dont even realize it.
-No matter the stakes I have tried, they always are spewy and sticky.
-They do not have a grasp on position, hand selection, etc. I have tried to help in the past and explain these things to everyone, but it goes in one ear and out the other it seems.

Now, I love this game personally. I have so much fun, it's unreal. It is one of the most entertaining shows I get to witness weekly.
It's like watching 3 bildo's play each other some nights.

I am lowering the stakes to 5c/10c most likely to help with the cash portion of it. I have 2 racks of nickels on the way, that way, their dollars get stretched farther and people can have more bullets to play with.




SO I guess its time for the question:
How do I help this group maximize their fun and try to correct the behavior that is causing them to complain?

---Do I try again and really push hard to educate people on poker? How do I go about it? Nothing I have tried so far has stuck, and I do not want to come off as snobby by any means. I just don't know what to do when the issues they are having is because the players put themselves in these spots. They don't seem to care enough to listen, but care enough to complain about how others play.

---In addition to lowering stakes, do I try and learn limit games and teach them? Do I just introduce bet limits in general to keep the game going longer? I have no idea how to play limit games. I also have no idea what to make the bet limits to mimic what a normal NL 5c/10c game to be like. I also dont know if I need a new chip breakdown for that or not. I don't understand small bet/big bet, etc. Are there good write ups that explain these things barney style?




I just want my friends to enjoy themselves.
I play at the casino 1-2 times a week and have 3 other home games I play in a week as well. I get enough "competitive" poker to sate me.
I dont want to use this group for profit at all and don't mind losing multiple bullets here. How do I make sure they have the best time?
Try limit poker for your cash game. Maybe some limit pineapple as your group likes to see flops a lot.
 

JustinInMN

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  1. They do not like buy ins of more than $20. When people lose 2-3 buy ins, they are very upset. And after the night we had a $200+ pot I scooped in a 4 way all in (My set of 9's vs a weak paired Ace and two straight draws), they talked about lowering stakes even more so we don't have a night like that again. One player folded the winning hand QX preflop when I 3 bet to some large number. She was so angry she took a break.

I am lowering the stakes to 5c/10c most likely to help with the cash portion of it. I have 2 racks of nickels on the way, that way, their dollars get stretched farther and people can have more bullets to play with.

I think you have the right answer here. And maybe lowering the max buy in to $10 to be in line with the tournament would make sense also.

But think about it, tournament's have appeal because it's a "budget" a max in their head they will lose. In cash that's out the window, and the cash buy in is twice what the tournament buy in would be.

These are just never going to be high stacks players, and most of their "complaints" just reveal they will forever be in the fish pond yesterday. But yes, if the thought of winning a $200 pot is offensive to the game, the stakes are much too high.
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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Only 5 handed this week, people were busy.

I lowered stakes to 5c/10c, we played 200bb deep stack and it played slightly more disciplined than last week. I'll introduce limit to them once I get a limit set, or the rest of my chips arrive from BRPro. I had to use outlaw chips I own as nickels until I get my real ones.

Everyone played on 1 bullet all night, i was impressed....until the guy that was down all night decided to shove all in blind on the last hand for $7.40. I got down to $12 at one point, but then got back to $20 and hovered for a while. I got up to $30 a few hands before the last hand.

I look down at KQo and feel like participating. The entire table calls and we end up all in on the turn. Idk what they were thinking, but I had a blast scooping this pot. The game broke after as you can imagine. In for $20, out for $80 lol

20211003_230612.jpg
20211003_231047.jpg
 

JustinInMN

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I lowered stakes to 5c/10c, we played 200bb deep stack and it played slightly more disciplined than last week. I'll introduce limit to them once I get a limit set, or the rest of my chips arrive from BRPro. I had to use outlaw chips I own as nickels until I get my real ones.
I think this was the right choice, and it appears it made the game better. As much as I love a good limit game, there aren't that many willing players. I would just see if this "works" for the near term before making that leap.

I look down at KQo and feel like participating. The entire table calls and we end up all in on the turn. Idk what they were thinking, but I had a blast scooping this pot. The game broke after as you can imagine. In for $20, out for $80 lol

Lol @ j6 had to get in there.
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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Lol @ j6 had to get in there.

J6 was the All in blind player.

We were supposed to play the last hand when the button got to him. And he said he was considering shoving all in blind last hand. Luckily, he shoved on what was supposed to be the 2nd to last hand, so this happened. I got lucky as heck from his mistake.
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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I also have to report, the old lady got me again twice yesterday. Both times I held JdJs

I get it all in when she is short stacking. She has QQ, and hits a queen on the turn for the extra f*ck you.

I get it all in with her on the flop with JJ again, she has K2o, her favorite hand. Has a 2, binks the K for the 2 pair on a connected board.

Guy to my right shoves all in pre with A9h. She calls with Q3d because "queens have been hitting all day and I trust my dealer". He scoops lol

I hate this game
 

BPTDirector

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I’d just tell them that if they insist on playing poorly with bad cash management tactics that they cannot gripe when shit happens.
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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I’d just tell them that if they insist on playing poorly with bad cash management tactics that they cannot gripe when shit happens.

I had separate conversations with a few of the players and I think that they are starting to understand that a lot of the wounds being suffered are self inflicted. I did my best to stay impartial and explain in a general sense why it's bad or good to do certain things and put things I to perspective

I also compared calling these "huge" bets they are calling with at our stakes to casino low stakes like 1/3.

"So you calling that guy's 3 bet at our stakes was like flat calling $66 at the casino with that weak hand you had, and all the other guys calling $66 after you. So if we were playing 1/3, that pot on the flop would have been $330+ the other dead money in the middle from the others."

"Oh, I had no idea, that makes sense"

They still need to learn hand selection, position, etc. But some of the plays they made last night made me smile. Watching them check raise each other and such was great.
 

xdan

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This game would tilt the hell out of me.

If they sook over $20, find a new group to play with.
 

JustinInMN

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I also compared calling these "huge" bets they are calling with at our stakes to casino low stakes like 1/3.

"So you calling that guy's 3 bet at our stakes was like flat calling $66 at the casino with that weak hand you had, and all the other guys calling $66 after you. So if we were playing 1/3, that pot on the flop would have been $330+ the other dead money in the middle from the others."
Also a very good idea to put it in those terms, I should have suggested that :p.
 

Defarse

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Our group of 9 loves our sit-n-gos. We do three a night at about 2.5 hours each. $10 buy-in for first two and $20 for the third "Main Event". I don't care for cash games AT ALL.......and really like the tournaments (chalk each buy-in to entertainment expense and go wild without losing another dime!!).
 

SteveEH

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"So you calling that guy's 3 bet at our stakes was like flat calling $66 at the casino with that weak hand you had, and all the other guys calling $66 after you. So if we were playing 1/3, that pot on the flop would have been $330+ the other dead money in the middle from the others."

Good job. I would have said "don't think about the money, think about how much chips are already in the pot vs what you're gonna be putting in, which probably doesn't make sense to people that don't get the maffs...
 

Hairy_Crocodile

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Good job. I would have said "don't think about the money, think about how much chips are already in the pot vs what you're gonna be putting in, which probably doesn't make sense to people that don't get the maffs...

I think that's one of the many pitfalls I was making while trying to explain things to them. They dont think like poker players yet and do t consider things like stack sizes, pot odds, calculating odds to hit outs, etc.

So putting a dollar value on it for now seems to be something that sticks, so we will start there.
 
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