My First Time Catching a Cheat (Yes, Really) (2 Viewers)

[doublebooyah85]

There is a culture within gambling that cheating out your friends and others is part of the game. I don’t agree with it, I don’t condone it, but it’s part of the hustle. Hell, they make movies about it. Doesn’t make it right, but for some it justifies it.

 

[Jimulacrum]

There is a culture within gambling that cheating out your friends and others is part of the game. I don’t agree with it, I don’t condone it, but it’s part of the hustle. Hell, they make movies about it. Doesn’t make it right, but for some it justifies it.

Same kind of "culture" that exists throughout humanity, of dishonest people and their excuses.

All they're really interested in is cheating honest people because it's easy and profitable. Take the honest people out of the equation, leaving all games populated with cheats trying to ply their tricks against each other, and they wouldn't want it. It would be too honest of a competition, ironically.

 

[dizzyChipper]

@CraigT78

I think I’d ask him for a loan.

Let him buy in. Then have a special video presentation….

Chop up whatever $ of his you can in a fair and equitable manor.

This allows for maximum public shaming and a story that will spread locally and help him be burned everywhere.

This stuff makes me mental. I don’t play in self dealt games but I do note the fine gentleman that with real $ on the line will warn “hey watch your cards. You’re showing me your hand.” Or a guy folds with a high discard “I saw a red 9 - check the muck.”

—Diz

 

[JustinInMN]

There is a culture within gambling that cheating out your friends and others is part of the game. I don’t agree with it, I don’t condone it, but it’s part of the hustle. Hell, they make movies about it. Doesn’t make it right, but for some it justifies it.

You know what I remember the most about reading "Super System" by the late Doyle Brunson. Sure I remember the broad strokes of what he described as "power poker," and I know that influenced many people that bought this book during the boom.

But what stuck with me was how important it was for gamblers to have honor. How he points out that gamblers can bet thousands with hand gestures, no paperwork. How he would go after those that rig prop bets, friends or otherwise.

I believe most gamblers at least have some honor, and more honor than most professional workers and executives, (and certainly more honor than most politicians.)

In short, I will not entertain any broad slander on gamblers. I believe the best thing honorable gamblers know is that those who cheat are the outsiders, and should be treated as such.

Man, I might have to reread this book, it's been a decade or so.

 

[CraigT78]

Damn. Draw games are ripe for this, everyone is checking their pulls.

This isn't voyueristic, but I do really want to know how you handle this discussion with the cheat and your players. You're a respected member and run a regular game, I want to know how to cross this bridge if I ever get to it.

I haven't talked to my players yet. That will happen at the next game when they realize player X is no longer there. I'll simply state that player X will no longer be playing here. I'm sure that will lead to more questions, and I'll handle that as it comes. I'm not here to smear the guy, he knows what he did and what it's cost him.

As for player X, I wanted to have a live conversation with the other player in my game who first noticed it. Unfortunately schedules would not allow that to happen until the next game. So I sent a very "as a matter of fact" email outlining what we witnessed, that I believe I witnessed it again, and confirmed it with video evidence. There wasn't any room for objection or denial, as the videos were 100% conclusive. Outlined that he was banned effectively immediately, and closed with I hoped that everything was okay, as this wasn't a guy anyone would have ever expected would be doing this.

So for all those that believe their games are secure with decades long friends.......don't let your guard down. I was there and got burned.

 

[upNdown]

You know what I remember the most about reading "Super System" by the late Doyle Brunson. Sure I remember the broad strokes of what he described as "power poker," and I know that influenced many people that bought this book during the boom.

But what stuck with me was how important it was for gamblers to have honor. How he points out that gamblers can bet thousands with hand gestures, no paperwork. How he would go after those that rig prop bets, friends or otherwise.

I believe most gamblers at least have some honor, and more honor than most professional workers and executives, (and certainly more honor than most politicians.)

In short, I will not entertain any broad slander on gamblers. I believe the best thing honorable gamblers know is that Those that cheat I believe are the outsiders, and should be treated as such.

Man, I might have to reread this book, it's been a decade or so.

Yeah, I'm with you. For gamblers, honor is rewarded. Reputation is nearly everything.

 

[Gunnar]

Well I always remember a moment where I was in a huge pot in a big game. I have nut flush but there is a straight flush available if you have the we are not all-in and both very very deep. The dealer forgot to burn before the river and exposed the .

I knew the other player a nice guy and I have played with him many games. New river is a brick. Action on us! The dealer mistake showed us the only scare card in the deck so we know we are ahead. What do we do?

Spoiler

I checked and said just so you know the dealer ruined your hand as he confirmed to me that I have the nuts. I just did just not feel fair to bet knowing the extra information. Maybe I’m just soft but I have honor

 

[doublebooyah85]

I haven't talked to my players yet. That will happen at the next game when they realize player X is no longer there. I'll simply state that player X will no longer be playing here. I'm sure that will lead to more questions, and I'll handle that as it comes. I'm not here to smear the guy, he knows what he did and what it's cost him.

As for player X, I wanted to have a live conversation with the other player in my game who first noticed it. Unfortunately schedules would not allow that to happen until the next game. So I sent a very "as a matter of fact" email outlining what we witnessed, that I believe I witnessed it again, and confirmed it with video evidence. There wasn't any room for objection or denial, as the videos were 100% conclusive. Outlined that he was banned effectively immediately, and closed with I hoped that everything was okay, as this wasn't a guy anyone would have ever expected would be doing this.

So for all those that believe their games are secure with decades long friends.......don't let your guard down. I was there and got burned.

I would have had him at the next game and after he bought in told him to leave lol (half joking)

 

[dizzyChipper]

I would have had him at the next game and after he bought in told him to leave lol (half joking)

I’m 100% for this.

I know @CraigT78 isn’t there to smear a guy but isn’t there an ethical obligation to inform the local poker community through word of mouth about this guy. I wouldn’t want him in my home let alone on a game. He’s gotta go, everyone needs to know why…

—Diz

 

[Machine]

..

I'll simply state that player X will no longer be playing here. I'm sure that will lead to more questions, and I'll handle that as it comes.

Please consider that, by giving him anonymity, some might say you're enabling him to continue with others. I get trying to go easy on a friend, but if he eluded you for at least months, maybe years, others could be in the same spot as you.

All the love, I know its a hard spot, and I'm sorry for the loss

 

[Jimulacrum]

Well I always remember a moment where I was in a huge pot in a big game. I have nut flush but there is a straight flush available if you have the we are not all-in and both very very deep. The dealer forgot to burn before the river and exposed the .

I knew the other player a nice guy and I have played with him many games. New river is a brick. Action on us! The dealer mistake showed us the only scare card in the deck so we know we are ahead. What do we do?

Spoiler

I checked and said just so you know the dealer ruined your hand as he confirmed to me that I have the nuts. I just did just not feel fair to bet knowing the extra information. Maybe I’m just soft but I have honor

IMO using information from cards exposed to everyone is fair game. Only in the rarest, strangest cases will I pass on legitimate value due to a dealing irregularity or extra information gained by, say, another player slamming his fist on the table when the four-card straight flush hits.

It's a game of information. Using the knowledge of that to your advantage is no different than if the had appeared on someone's board in 7 Card Stud. Everyone knows it was exposed and knows you saw it. All it does is add another wrinkle to the dynamics of the hand.

 

[dizzyChipper]

..

Please consider that, by giving him anonymity, some might say you're enabling him to continue with others. I get trying to go easy on a friend, but if he eluded you for at least months, maybe years, others could be in the same spot as you.

All the love, I know its a hard spot, and I'm sorry for the loss

^This. And if the guy was scamming the whole time was he ever a friend?

"I'm sorry for your loss" is the socially intelligent take here. @CraigT78 - I'm sorry for your loss.

--Diz

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

You know what I remember the most about reading "Super System" by the late Doyle Brunson. Sure I remember the broad strokes of what he described as "power poker," and I know that influenced many people that bought this book during the boom.

But what stuck with me was how important it was for gamblers to have honor. How he points out that gamblers can bet thousands with hand gestures, no paperwork. How he would go after those that rig prop bets, friends or otherwise.

I believe most gamblers at least have some honor, and more honor than most professional workers and executives, (and certainly more honor than most politicians.)

In short, I will not entertain any broad slander on gamblers. I believe the best thing honorable gamblers know is that Those that cheat I believe are the outsiders, and should be treated as such.

Man, I might have to reread this book, it's been a decade or so.

Yes, but there was honor among some of the honorable road gamblers that he knew, only because they trusted eachother and NO ONE ELSE. So I think the shady shifty gambler reputation is earned. Yes, we can build up gamblers as men of their word, but we all have stories of men who have been in our games or at casinos that we wouldn't trust to tell us the time. He spoke about those he trusted, yes, but he had entire chapters about crooked games and robberies and the fact that he couldn't fully trust the games he played in.

I don't believe the reputation meets the burden of slander. Maybe we need another word for trusted gamblers lol, because when I first meet someone the fact that he's a gambler doesn't make him honorable to me.

Yeah, yadda yadda, there's these types of people in every profession and walk of life, sure. But our thing has a long history of romanticizing marked decks and collusion and underground games and Amarillo Slim's completely-fair-but-angly prop bets. Its part of our culture.

 

[CraigT78]

I’m 100% for this.

I know @CraigT78 isn’t there to smear a guy but isn’t there an ethical obligation to inform the local poker community through word of mouth about this guy. I wouldn’t want him in my home let alone on a game. He’s gotta go, everyone needs to know why…

—Diz

The host of the other game we frequent has been informed.

 

[Jimulacrum]

^This. And if the guy was scamming the whole time was he ever a friend?

Yep. Same way I feel about "Chuck" in my example.

He wasn't a friend to the group at all. He was an opportunistic thief who happened to work with them, and perhaps at some point lost the plot and started feeling like they were friends even as he was cheating them out of cash while he smiled in their faces and patted them on the back.

He did have relationships with them outside of work and poker, but if he really cared about those people or his friendship with them, he could have stopped cheating at any time. No one had caught him, and no one would have caught him if he'd stopped. But he kept it up. He apparently never had a twinge of conscience about it. Even after he seemed to notice I was watching him, he waited it out and went back to cheating like it was his job.

In other words, he remained a thief through and through.

 

[CraigT78]

..

Please consider that, by giving him anonymity, some might say you're enabling him to continue with others. I get trying to go easy on a friend, but if he eluded you for at least months, maybe years, others could be in the same spot as you.

All the love, I know its a hard spot, and I'm sorry for the loss

My locals will all know who it was. I don't feel the need to out anyone publicly.

 

[Jimulacrum]

our thing

I instinctively read this in Italian.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I instinctively read this in Italian.

Realized too late it sounded mafia-adjacent. "This thing of ours", I'm subtly discussing my 5cent/10cent game.

"ANNA, you got NO IDEA what its like to be #1. Heavy lies the crown." -as I clean up the rest of the chips and salsa.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Realized too late it sounded mafia-adjacent. "This thing of ours", I'm subtly discussing my 5cent/10cent game.

"ANNA, you got NO IDEA what its like to be #1. Heavy lies the crown." -as I clean up the rest of the chips and salsa.

I don't know this "mafia" you're talking about. Never heard of such a thing.

 

[justsomedude]

I would have had him at the next game and after he bought in told him to leave lol (half joking)

I'm on board with this.

 

[ekricket]

You know what I remember the most about reading "Super System" by the late Doyle Brunson. Sure I remember the broad strokes of what he described as "power poker," and I know that influenced many people that bought this book during the boom.

But what stuck with me was how important it was for gamblers to have honor. How he points out that gamblers can bet thousands with hand gestures, no paperwork. How he would go after those that rig prop bets, friends or otherwise.

I believe most gamblers at least have some honor, and more honor than most professional workers and executives, (and certainly more honor than most politicians.)

In short, I will not entertain any broad slander on gamblers. I believe the best thing honorable gamblers know is that Those that cheat I believe are the outsiders, and should be treated as such.

Man, I might have to reread this book, it's been a decade or so.

I think also in the cheaters mind there is a lack of respect for what he is cheating - these people or this thing doesn’t really matter so I can do whatever - and I think that’s tied up too with the honor concept you describe.

Gamblers honor debt out of respect. Some people have no respect for anything, so they cheat.
But an honest gambler will pay his debts- even if the person he owed has died. It’s a matter of respect for the people you deal with, alive or dead.

I hate talking about this. It’s a Thing you either get or you never will. It’s like trying to describe the color blue to a blind man.

But I like operating in a handshake or nod of the head world. I live in a part of the country where your word and your name is your bond and it’s sparsely populated so everyone knows for literally hundreds of miles. Everybody knows there is accountability.

The funny thing is though I don’t really mind dealing with thief’s and cheats. You know exactly where you stand with them from the get go so you can take the proper precautions. I don’t like hanging around them, but if they have something or can do something needed I’ll deal with them, protecting myself along the way. There’s all kinds of people in this world.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

You guys don't just rip it in based on gut feelings?

Every. Damn. Time.

 

[Jimulacrum]

But I like operating in a handshake or nod of the head world. I live in a part of the country where your word and your name is your bond and it’s sparsely populated so everyone knows for literally hundreds of miles. Everybody knows there is accountability.

I like operating that way too. I am happy for you to live in a place that suits you so well.

But I can recognize the cheat's code. It's a survival mechanism in a world the cheat perceives as being full of unfairness and naked self-interest. His cheating is an attempt to adapt to that, and is his starting premise truly wrong? The world we live in, outside of a handful of enclaves, is in fact overrun with bad faith—cheats and liars and thieves and worse. Perhaps not the majority, but it doesn't take a majority to cheat and steal and kill at scale.

So I see where the cheat who thinks this way is coming from. The world truly does have this problem. What I don't agree with is the cheat choosing to become part of the problem. It's like resigning to the idea that the world is inherently bad and we should just roll with it, even if we'll make it worse.

Massively EV–.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Well I always remember a moment where I was in a huge pot in a big game. I have nut flush but there is a straight flush available if you have the we are not all-in and both very very deep. The dealer forgot to burn before the river and exposed the .

I knew the other player a nice guy and I have played with him many games. New river is a brick. Action on us! The dealer mistake showed us the only scare card in the deck so we know we are ahead. What do we do?

Spoiler

I checked and said just so you know the dealer ruined your hand as he confirmed to me that I have the nuts. I just did just not feel fair to bet knowing the extra information. Maybe I’m just soft but I have honor

In the most technical sense, isn't checking the nuts considered soft playing? A form of collusion?

 

[Rieguy]

In the most technical sense, isn't checking the nuts considered soft playing? A form of collusion?

NLHE final action - Tournament, yes. Cash, no. (I'll still judge anyone for the latter though.)

That said, I think any Tournament Director would be hesitant to genuinely punish such a check resulting from a dealer error. Maybe a "warning" so they can say they technically did some sort of rule enforcement. At a friendly home game I'm sure it's unlikely to be an issue under the same parameters.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

NLHE final action - Tournament, yes. Cash, no. (I'll still judge anyone for the latter though.)

That said, I think any Tournament Director would be hesitant to genuinely punish such a check resulting from a dealer error. Maybe a "warning" so they can say they technically did some sort of rule enforcement. At a friendly home game I'm sure it's unlikely to be an issue under the same parameters.

Yeah, I understand. Just pointing out that anyone who does use that info to try to extract more chips is not doing anything even remotely wrong, in a poker sense.

In that situation Gunnar was in, I think I might make a comment like "well, I guess we know now that neither of us has the straight flush!" But I would still absolutely make a bet, with no remorse.

 

[Gunnar]

In the most technical sense, isn't checking the nuts considered soft playing? A form of collusion?

It was cash game, in tournament I’m shoving

 

[CraigT78]

I just spoke with player X. It was an emotional and difficult conversation. We are going to meet for coffee next week. There was no denial and he was completely open to any questions I had.

I am gutted over this situation.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

In the most technical sense, isn't checking the nuts considered soft playing? A form of collusion?

NLHE final action - Tournament, yes. Cash, no. (I'll still judge anyone for the latter though.)

That said, I think any Tournament Director would be hesitant to genuinely punish such a check resulting from a dealer error. Maybe a "warning" so they can say they technically did some sort of rule enforcement. At a friendly home game I'm sure it's unlikely to be an issue under the same parameters.

Forget where I read it but I believe it was a recent rule change, legal to check the nuts if you're closing action and want to see your opponents hand. I forget the situation but it came up that a bet would not accomplish anything but he was interested in what his opponent 3bet with or something.

Agreed on the home game part, we've given a "what the fuck are you checking for".

I just spoke with player X. It was an emotional and difficult conversation. We are going to meet for coffee next week. There was no denial and he was completely open to any questions I had.

I am gutted over this situation.

Ah Craig. Alright man, that's got to hurt your stomach. Good on you for speaking with him, and good luck on the coffee date. Disappointment is an understatement. Be prepared for the "how can I make this right" question.

 

[JMC9389]

Sorry Craig, the last couple of pages were a gutpunch to read.

Not going to speculate, but it sounds like your friend is falling on hard times and resorted to cheating your game as a means of slightly more bring home pay.