Oooh, I'm sorry. Talk to us. Cheat dealing? Collusion? Telekinesis?
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My First Time Catching a Cheat (Yes, Really) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jimulacrum
- Start date
Anyone who believes in Telekinesis, please raise my hand.
I only have one story about a cheater getting caught. I started going to Atlantic City a lot during the poker boom era back in 2006 and was a semi regular around the various poker rooms on the weekends for a decade or so.
One night at Caesar’s, we’re having a great time at a really fun table telling jokes and stories and winning some nice pots. We’re all strangers, but we just clicked. That can happen from time to time and it’s nice when it does.
Suddenly, there’s a commotion at the table across from us. A bunch of very large men surround this young looking guy in a hoodie. A floor manager pulls out a what looks like a photo copy of this guy with his hand on a large stack of chips on his right that he’s shifting over to his stack. The stack apparently belonged to someone that had left the table for a dinner break.
In this “Swiper, no swiping” moment, the security took his chips, took his friend’s chips that was with him and promptly bounced them both out of the casino. We sat there watching this entire scenario unfold.
I just couldn’t resist the urge to yell out, “Bad boys, bad boys. What you gonna do? What you gonna do when they come for you?” To my surprise the whole table jumped in and sang along, which seemed to motivate their team into tossing these guys out even faster. lol.
The eyes in the sky are everywhere in the casinos in Atlantic City. I can’t imagine how or why this guy thought he’d get away with that. In all the years I’ve played in casinos, that’s the only time I’ve ever seen someone dumb enough to try such a thing.
One night at Caesar’s, we’re having a great time at a really fun table telling jokes and stories and winning some nice pots. We’re all strangers, but we just clicked. That can happen from time to time and it’s nice when it does.
Suddenly, there’s a commotion at the table across from us. A bunch of very large men surround this young looking guy in a hoodie. A floor manager pulls out a what looks like a photo copy of this guy with his hand on a large stack of chips on his right that he’s shifting over to his stack. The stack apparently belonged to someone that had left the table for a dinner break.
In this “Swiper, no swiping” moment, the security took his chips, took his friend’s chips that was with him and promptly bounced them both out of the casino. We sat there watching this entire scenario unfold.
I just couldn’t resist the urge to yell out, “Bad boys, bad boys. What you gonna do? What you gonna do when they come for you?” To my surprise the whole table jumped in and sang along, which seemed to motivate their team into tossing these guys out even faster. lol.
The eyes in the sky are everywhere in the casinos in Atlantic City. I can’t imagine how or why this guy thought he’d get away with that. In all the years I’ve played in casinos, that’s the only time I’ve ever seen someone dumb enough to try such a thing.
What if someone is making you NOT raise your hand??? -spooky-
Cheating while dealing. Primarily during draw games. Taking extra draw cards, combining discarded and draws to make better hands.
Long-time player, friend for just as long.
Caught on my security camera multiple times in one session.
Life-time ban unlocked.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
So I just want to get this straight. In a draw game, he would somehow discard more than he would draw and then was able to drop the extra cards without anyone noticing?
Fuck. I'm sorry man, that has to really hurt, that's a significant betrayal. Have a Sopranos moment, take Big Puss out on a boat?
No, he'd discard and draw more than he discarded. Then sleight of hand discard again as he's turning his cards over, or palm a card and discard while cleaning up the pot. It was all VERY smooth.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Incredible. Bold. And yes, it would have to be smooth for no one to catch a move like that.
Glad you caught him, so sorry it's a personal toll.
EDIT, I just realized my previous comment was backward.
BarrieJ3
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Obviously a horrible situation, and not to be off topic, but super interesting with security camera on the actual game/players.
Was there any pushback from your players on that?
As far as intent, is that specific camera to catch things like this, or was it more for general room and had the clarity to catch the actions?
How did you catch him? He accidently forgot to discard properly too many times and you reviewed it? Did he admit the guilt?
Sorry to hear…
Sorry to hear…
I full-time deal my games to keep the pace on track (or else each hand is going to take 5x as long, literally), but between the OP, recent posts, and everything in between it sounds like I'm also avoiding potential cheaters even having the temptation of handling the deck inappropriately. (Of course, I trust anyone I have over 100%, but I also trust Craig's judgment and assume it was the same for him before this.)
Just toss it as another reason why a full-time dealer (host or someone hired/appointed) always keeps games running smoother than those without.
Just toss it as another reason why a full-time dealer (host or someone hired/appointed) always keeps games running smoother than those without.
OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
I'm curious about the cheat's reaction too. I'd expect pure denial in a case like mine, where there's no material proof, but with a video it makes no sense to deny.
Really, I'm curious about how the whole thing went down.
Shame to have a "friend" turn out to have been an enemy the whole time. I'd bet it's making you doubt 1,000 things that have happened over the years, and if the calculation in his cheating method is any indication, you're right to have those doubts.
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Gah.
OP
OP
Jimulacrum
Full House
Collusion is one of the most insidious forms of cheating. If the colluders make it a point to be careful and subtle,* it can easily go undetected for a long time, even under the watch of cameras and staff in a formal cardroom. Worse even than an opportunist messing with the deck because it has to include a conspiracy of at least two players, i.e., 20% or more of your field is now made up of cheats.
Unlike, say, @Anthony Martino's infamous Cubans.
THEY'LL STEAL YER TIRES AND WHEELS!
acezag
Flush
Funny that 12 pages were tangentially about cheating at cards, and ended up a years-long illustration of the two sides of an ancient philosophical argument.
I've always found it fascinating that the key ingredient of every con job is trust: convincing someone who knows better to lower their guard in order to, in some fashion, have fellowship. From an early age everyone has seen this bet go sour - really, that's the story of civilization. And yet we keep making it. Do we have a choice? one part of the argument goes. You're not really wrong on either side of it.
A favorite movie scene of mine is from Les Mis, when Valjean, on the run, has just betrayed the priest who sheltered him, assaulting him in order to steal his valuables and run again on his own. The police, having apprehended Valjean, are interrupted by the priest, who insists the stolen goods were gifts, and takes the convict, who he knows only as a betrayer, back home.
My cynical side loves the scene for its insanity and unintentional horror: surely his naive view will doom him, suggests perhaps that he himself has just escaped an asylum. And another part of me - coincidentally related to my gambling side, I think - loves the scene, hopes that he instead was making a rational decision. That maybe the implied odds of the universe supported a semi-bluff - that the worst of us, and in us, can change, evolve. Be worthy of someone lowering their guard. Maybe more than once.
Can't fault anyone for making that bet, or those who decide they can't be someone's priest again. Poker says you shouldn't change your ideal play because of past pots, won or lost. If the math's sound, implied or otherwise, make your play.
I've always found it fascinating that the key ingredient of every con job is trust: convincing someone who knows better to lower their guard in order to, in some fashion, have fellowship. From an early age everyone has seen this bet go sour - really, that's the story of civilization. And yet we keep making it. Do we have a choice? one part of the argument goes. You're not really wrong on either side of it.
A favorite movie scene of mine is from Les Mis, when Valjean, on the run, has just betrayed the priest who sheltered him, assaulting him in order to steal his valuables and run again on his own. The police, having apprehended Valjean, are interrupted by the priest, who insists the stolen goods were gifts, and takes the convict, who he knows only as a betrayer, back home.
My cynical side loves the scene for its insanity and unintentional horror: surely his naive view will doom him, suggests perhaps that he himself has just escaped an asylum. And another part of me - coincidentally related to my gambling side, I think - loves the scene, hopes that he instead was making a rational decision. That maybe the implied odds of the universe supported a semi-bluff - that the worst of us, and in us, can change, evolve. Be worthy of someone lowering their guard. Maybe more than once.
Can't fault anyone for making that bet, or those who decide they can't be someone's priest again. Poker says you shouldn't change your ideal play because of past pots, won or lost. If the math's sound, implied or otherwise, make your play.
A few of us play regularly at another game. As we were leaving one night my buddy says to me, watch player X at our next game. I think I saw something fishy with his dealing.
So next game I kept an eye out, didn't see anything suspicious, but the following game I did. I thought I saw him pull his discarded hand back into his hand that included the draw. I wasn't 100% as it was quick, but I made note of the time. The rest of the game I made notes of when this player has "big" hands, such as a boat in bum bum, low card flushes in Archie/Veronica, and other draw games.
When I watched the tape back, it was pretty clear. I made it through about four hours of video and had 4 or 5 examples, which was all I needed to confirm.
Does "poker" say this? I would probably think that that is not necessarily always the case, but I'm no poker expert.
Damn. Draw games are ripe for this, everyone is checking their pulls.
This isn't voyueristic, but I do really want to know how you handle this discussion with the cheat and your players. You're a respected member and run a regular game, I want to know how to cross this bridge if I ever get to it.
The emotional appeal of this is overwhelming because it goes against the notion of trust, or rather betrayal of trust; you don't stick your hand out a second time for a dog to bite you again. I, too, love this scene and movie.
You don't trust a junkie with your heart or wallet,
I will say:
The priest wasn't giving Valjean a second chance out of the goodness of his heart; he bought his soul. While there is no direct dialogue, other than with the woman, the priest feels guilty of the life he has lived and wants to suffer to help another person, as it's part of his story. Sure, it seems heroic, but from standard dogma, it's the best case of self, and is self serving for the character; also, it's a tool called Deus Ex Machina where the storyteller gives our anti-hero his literal get out of jail free card (aka a miracle).
My point is this, its Hollywood, not real life, you shouldn't try this at home, or in a poker game for a cheater
Your point isn't lost, the love of the game shouldn't be spoiled by a cheat, there are a lot of good people out there to play with and you can over come the tresspass of the cheater
LowerBama1714
Full House
Public shaming…internet shaming…violence. Not necessarily in that order.
Say what? Math changes based on hand history of past pots?
He's actually talking about sunken cost fallacy; he's saying, regardless of previous experience, poker is worth playing, even if you run into a cheat, using a context of poker
acezag
Flush
If my decision to employ or avoid a certain play is primarily determined by how much it's won or cost me pots recently, I'm playing suboptimally.
That I've been sucked out on a few too many times the last year when I went all in on the turn really shouldn't influence my decision now on whether that is the best play on this turn.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
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You guys don't just rip it in based on gut feelings?
acezag
Flush
When I do, I'm usually sleeping on the couch for a while.
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