Mike Leah Pays Off Heads-Up Opponent For WPT Title (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Martino]

I don't mind people agreeing to money chops. But to include a title in the deal seems not right to me. There are POY points and prizes to factor in, the champions inclusion in special WPT invite-only events that could change the opponent people who earned their title in a legit manner face, etc.

You'll see below his opponent raises to 1.7 million, folds to a shove and leaves himself 40K behind (less than a bb)

Then Mike wrote a lengthy defense of his actions online, you can read the whole thing here: https://www.facebook.com/mike.leah.9/posts/1720615451330747?hc_location=ufi


Here are the excerpts I felt are relevant. He says he would never buy a title, but then admits that's exactly what he did.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Just wrong in so many ways...

 

[upNdown]

So I have it straight -
1) Big stack proposes chop
2) the short stack will only agree to a chop if he gets the win
3) They agree to terms.
4) The TD says they have to play it out.
5) Big stack very obviously dumps chips to short stack until it's over.

What I have a problem with is number 4. Do the rules of the tournament forbid a chop? If so, they're both assholes and neither should get the win or first place money. If the rules don't forbid a chop, then they did nothing wrong, and the TD is the asshole.

ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THE RULES SAY?

 

[Anthony Martino]

I can't find the WPT rules, been looking. But my understanding is that the WPT will not facilitate deals of any kind, which forces players to go outside them to agree on money chops (and trust that their opponent will live up to their word on the agreement)

 

[v1pe]

So I have it straight -
1) Big stack proposes chop
2) the short stack will only agree to a chop if he gets the win
3) They agree to terms.
4) The TD says they have to play it out.
5) Big stack very obviously dumps chips to short stack until it's over.

What I have a problem with is number 4. Do the rules of the tournament forbid a chop? If so, they're both assholes and neither should get the win or first place money. If the rules don't forbid a chop, then they did nothing wrong, and the TD is the asshole.

ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THE RULES SAY?

TD/Rules shouldn't forbid a chop, IMO.

I can't find the WPT rules, been looking. But my understanding is that the WPT will not facilitate deals of any kind, which forces players to go outside them to agree on money chops (and trust that their opponent will live up to their word on the agreement)

That's what his Facebook post says. IMO unless the rules explicitly define that a chop is not allowed (vs just not facilitating chops), what they did is fine. It's obnoxious that they had to do it in such a manner, the TD should have just allowed the big stack to forfeit the win.

I also think that they should facilitate chops...it's good protection for the players.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I don't mind money deals, but title deals I can't agree with, which is what he did. He negotiated himself the trophy, he didn't actually earn that win. When you factor in players who did and then have to compete against him in the POY race, or in an invite-only event for "champions", I think it sours things

 

[ruskba]

Here are the excerpts I felt are relevant. He says he would never buy a title, but then admits that's exactly what he did.

I don’t think that’s as damning as you make it out to be. Sounds like he said he doesn’t want a chop unless it somehown included the title, Yu opponent offered ICM and also give Leah the title and he agreed. Doesn’t sound like he bought anything. It was a mutual agreement between two adults in a (presumably) fully coherent state.

I have no knowledge of this other than what you posted, but if it’s a mutual agreement then who cares? Maybe Yu didn’t think about POY and endorsements and whatever else. Maybe Leah didn’t either. Who really knows. Can’t crucify the guy for coming to a mutual agreement.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I disagree. If he refuses to chop unless it includes the title, he is in fact using money (i.e. paying) as a means to obtain (i.e. buy or purchase) said title.

It doesn't matter that the guys "came to a mutual agreement". You have to factor in the POY race, the TOC, the tarnishing of the WPT brand and the titles associated with it, etc.

Would you feel the same if this happened at the WSOP Main Event because some big name deep-pocketed pro really wanted that title heads-up?

 

[ruskba]

Sure, I don’t care if it’s WPT or WSOP. Leah didn’t strong arm Yu from the sounds of it. If it’s true that Yu offered the deal, then why is Leah getting the flack? Maybe you should direct your outrage at Yu for offereing a deal that tarnishes the WPT brand.

If someone offers you a +EV deal, should you say no because it’s -EV for the other guy?

There may have been extremely similar or identical deals made in WPT or WSOP events that you just don’t know about because they didn’t chip dump as obviously as this.

 

[moose]

I don't get the problem with this. Is it because he chopped when he wasn't the chipleader? Only the chip leader gets the title? I don't think you understand what an icm chop is. Icm factors in the chance each person has of winning the title. Just because you aren't the chipleader doesn't mean you have zero chance of winning. Clearly on any chop the title must be negotiated as well.

His opponent offered the chop. Just because he refused to chop without the title only means he was willing to play it out to get the title. If that was what he wanted why would he negotiate it away?

 

[Chris Manzoni]

Not as bad as this one - https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016...k-serda-chop-ept-prague-high-roller-26642.htm

 

[Kain8]

The fact that this was done so brazenly with chip dumping is what really gets my goat. Is a tournament title really earned by you when your opponent literally gives you the win? Yes it takes skill to get to heads up, but there's still poker to be played. I really don't know how Leah can ever feel he won that tournament outright.

 

[kk405]

Just wrong in so many ways...

Pretty much this... There is no way to justify this. none. People can say wherever they want to defend him or justify his actions or sound indifferent, but if it walks like a jack ass, talks like a jack ass, it's a freakin donkey.... I don't know Leah, but I thought he is an OK guy from all his appearances and comments in the past...but I guess this is similar to Hellmuth/Duke shilling for UB and then defending their actions for years and years...so many examples of this in poker (and life), unfortunately

 

[Ronoh]

He was offered a chip-chop. Nothing wrong with that, it’s done all the time.

He was not going to chop if it meant getting second place and said as much. Both players are fine with the money but one wants first and the other doesn’t care. Forget Leah, I’m not sure why anyone thinks the other guy should be forced to play HU for a couple hundred thousand dollars when both guys are happy to chop it just because he happened to have the chip lead.

Having said that and understanding chops are a regular thing,

The fact that this was done so brazenly with chip dumping is what really gets my goat

What exactly would be worse for everyone involved? Flat out saying they made a deal and getting it over with in the manner they did? Or trying to “make it look good” while playing towards the agreed upon result?

One would look a whole lot more shady than the other......

 

[Anthony Martino]

I don't know how anyone can justify him paying off his opponent to blow a more than 2 to 1 chip advantage on purpose and give Mike the title, it's absolutely disgusting.

Mike wins more POY points because of this, and it's not like he's some random one-timer, this guy is a threat for POY and if he wins that title and the bonuses that go with it, how do you feel being the guy who was in 2nd of that race?

Mike also will get to attend invite-only champions events because of this win. If you had a legit title win and he winds up busting you from one of those special events when he might have not actually won the right to be there, how would you feel?

If Hellmuth or Negranue or some deep-pocketed pro did this heads-up to capture the WSOP Main Event title, how do you think that looks to the general poker playing public, and how does it impact the WSOP brand? Cause this for sure impacts the WPT brand and title.

 

[Kain8]

Chop, make deals, do whatever you want with the prize money. But play cards. This is the type of stuff that a player can exploit. Make a gentleman's agreement with 50 players, tell them that if you get heads up with them you pay them $XXXXXX, they chip dump to you, and you get to win the tourney.

This was of course not collusion but it sets a horrible precedent.

 

[BGinGA]

Our league events (and Championship) allow agreed-upon money chops (I always advocate an ICM chop based on chip counts, to protect the less-informed and less-savvy players). Gotta play cards for the points, no exceptions. However, you can't stop 'em from pushing all-in every hand..... but at least it's not predetermined. I don't care who ends up with the trophy.

 

[Ronoh]

I don't know how anyone can justify him paying off his opponent to blow a more than 2 to 1 chip advantage on purpose and give Mike the title, it's absolutely disgusting.

While the WPT will not mediate the terms and payouts it's not against the rules to chop in this manner, that's the bottom line. We have a whole mess of guys on this site who have long lists of rules covering most any situation that may pop up in their low stakes home games... I would wager this isn't the first time this has happened so being the WPT doesn't have one on the books concerning this particular obvious situation suggests they don't see it as being a big deal.

Besides that, by all accounts it doesn't appear to have been premeditated. Last year at SQM when we got to HU, chopping hadn't occurred to me. He asked if I wanted to chop, my first reaction was to say I wasn't chopping without getting the first place trophy and he said that was fine. In seven seconds flat the game went from no talk of a chop to being chopped and over. It appears this went down in a similar fashion... they got heads-up, Yu asked if he wanted to talk chop to which he replied I'm not chopping without talking first. The moment Yu said he was fine with that I am not seeing a scenario where it doesn't happen as they both now know they can each have what they want without breaking any rules.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Ronoh, you're comparing a small stakes small-field tourney with a high-profile large-field event that also includes POY points and prizes and an invite-only TOC event. There are factors in the WPT situation that weren't part of the situation you were involved in.

 

[ruskba]

You seem to not care that Leah accepted the deal. He was also HU for the title and POY points, so the deal wasn’t like he went from zero chance and zero points to getting it all.

It sounds like he made a not-so-serious offer of “yea I’ll chop if you give me the title, lol” and Yu was like “actually, yea.” They included the TOC seat in the ICM calculations. From reading his post, they were diligent and they both were happy. He says he would prefer to chop POY points as well, but the WPT doesn’t allow it, so who’s fault is that?

And again, if you don’t think this has happened before in a WPT or WSOP event, I think that’s pretty naive. It probably just wasn’t as obvious.

 

[Ronoh]

Ronoh, you're comparing a small stakes small-field tourney with a high-profile large-field event that also includes POY points and prizes and an invite-only TOC event. There are factors in the WPT situation that weren't part of the situation you were involved in.

The point of my story wasn’t the result of our small tourney, the point was how it went down. Leah didn’t bring up the chop, he simply said the first thing that popped into his head when Yu brought it up.

they got heads-up, Yu asked if he wanted to talk chop to which he replied I'm not chopping without talking first. The moment Yu said he was fine with that I am not seeing a scenario where it doesn't happen as they both now know they can each have what they want without breaking any rules.

 

[Ronoh]

It sounds like he made a not-so-serious offer of “yea I’ll chop if you give me the title, lol” and Yu was like “actually, yea.”

Bingo, that’s what I was saying

 

[Anthony Martino]

. He says he would prefer to chop POY points as well, but the WPT doesn’t allow it, so who’s fault is that?

The players for circumventing rules that were established in the event they chose to participate in. The WSOP or WPT don't approve of collusion, it doesn't matter how happy two guys are about doing it.

And again, if you don’t think this has happened before in a WPT or WSOP event, I think that’s pretty naive. It probably just wasn’t as obvious.

I don't believe I ever said I don't think it's happened before. I'm just saying I disagree with it, whether it's as blatant as this or whether it's hidden.

 

[BGinGA]

The players for circumventing rules that were established in the event they chose to participate in.

Please post the rule they circumvented. Like it or not, WPT let it ride. Take it up with them.

 

[Ronoh]

@Anthony Martino

You are playing in a WPT event. You get HU with a sizable chip lead where second place is 300,000 and first is 450,000. You ask if the guy wants to talk chop to which the guy replies I’m not chopping if I don’t get first place. You can chop, give him first place and take an additional 120,000 or risk that 120,000 for an additional 30,000 if you win. There is no rule against doing this.

Are you saying you would turn down the chop because of some ongoing POY thing that’s is going on which doesn’t have anything to do with you?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Please post the rule they circumvented. Like it or not, WPT let it ride. Take it up with them.

I would love to if I could find the fucking WPT rules posted somewhere

 

[Anthony Martino]

@Anthony Martino

You are playing in a WPT event. You get HU with a sizable chip lead where second place is 300,000 and first is 450,000. You ask if the guy wants to talk chop to which the guy replies I’m not chopping if I don’t get first place. You can chop, give him first place and take an additional 120,000 or risk that 120,000 for an additional 30,000 if you win. There is no rule against doing this.

Are you saying you would turn down the chop because of some ongoing POY thing that’s is going on which doesn’t have anything to do with you?

I'd tell him to fuck off and I'd play headsup. I'll chop money, but I'm not chopping the title.

 

[Ronoh]

I'd tell him to fuck off and I'd play headsup. I'll chop money, but I'm not chopping the title.

A WPT title is worth risking 120,000 to win 30,000 to you? More power to ya, I’ll take the cash

 

[Anthony Martino]

A WPT title is worth risking 120,000 to win 30,000 to you? More power to ya, I’ll take the cash

Hell yeah, you can't buy......oh wait....

 

[Ronoh]

I don't believe I ever said I don't think it's happened before. I'm just saying I disagree with it, whether it's as blatant as this or whether it's hidden.

Serious question. They could be blantantly obvious about what they were doing or they could have tried to hide it, both have the same end result. Do you think one is worse than the other or do you see them as one and the same?

My personal view is I have no problem with what they did as there is no rule against it... you can’t find the rule book but the professional poker community knows where it is and I’m sure the broken rule would be plastered everywhere by now if there was one.

On the other hand, if they tried to hide what they were doing, if Yu tried to throw the match without anyone finding out he threw it I would strongly feel that deserves disciplinary action of some description.