Key West Resort & Casino Discussion Thread

dennis63

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Asking from the perspective of a new chip collector, is there any benefit to having UV markings on a chip that isn’t live at a casino?

The security aspect is always important, but I was just curious to hear if there are any other use cases?
There are several practical applications.

Some time back, the former owner of ASM either produced or kept (or both) some Key West chips without my permission as the owner of the design. He tried to sell a lot of $1 Key Wests on Craigslist, but members here linked him to the phone number in the ad, and the chips, as far as I know, never sold. This is the reason we don't offer white Key West $1 chips for a buck, because I don't know how many "Red" has.

UV marking legit Key West chips from Classic would be a way to verify authenticity.

Marking the chips would also differentiate Key West chips I've sold to members here from those sold in the original run of Key Wests by Apache Poker Chips, another legitimate dealer and vendor here.

Finally, the idea was to stamp the chips with the UV palm tree in a standard location, and offer to create a unique stamp for you personally, and a different one for each person who owns Key West. That invisible stamp could be a symbol, a letter and number, or something you might want, in a location on the inlay you pick. Adding a personal symbol would be optional, and we would keep a list of symbols and owners here.

If your chips were ever stolen and recovered, the palm tree and your unique symbol in UV ink on the chip would be invisible and unknown to the thief, but would easily identify the chips as your property.
 
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alittlemessi

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Wow, all great points. Given that my KW set is for cash games, I can see the benefit of having a personalized symbol in case anyone wants to take souvenirs.

Now that makes your update unfortunate, because the idea of being able to have a personal stamp does seem practical and a neat customizable feature.

Thanks for closing the loop on that!
 

dennis63

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Wow, all great points. Given that my KW set is for cash games, I can see the benefit of having a personalized symbol in case anyone wants to take souvenirs.

Now that makes your update unfortunate, because the idea of being able to have a personal stamp does seem practical and a neat customizable feature.

Thanks for closing the loop on that!
I'm still hopeful that some day soon, there will be a UV ink developed that is both safe and long-lasting. "Permanent" safe UV might never happen, and right now the safe UV inks might last one week. We need to get to a point where the stamp stays on the chip for a year, or even six months. I'd have no problem re-stamping my chips every year.
 

dennis63

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Last night I removed the "small 4-chip sample" ordering option from the Key West site.

As a "buy it now" option, this did not work well. People placed orders, but lots of people forget to email if they want specific chips. I'd have to email them and wait for their response, if they responded at all. Sometimes I just sent the four sample denominations pictured and would get an email several days later asking me to send different denominations.

You can still order samples of the denominations you are considering for your chip set by using the order form on the site or sending a PM to me here.
 

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I'm still hopeful that some day soon, there will be a UV ink developed that is both safe and long-lasting. "Permanent" safe UV might never happen, and right now the safe UV inks might last one week. We need to get to a point where the stamp stays on the chip for a year, or even six months. I'd have no problem re-stamping my chips every year.
Hi Dennis

Great to read you keep on developing the awsome Key West brand
I love mine a lot (and they do have some nice sisters and brothers) nonetheless my KW set get's the most play by a mile (on players demand)

Would it not be possible to implement the UV-stamp/inkt on the label before lamination ?
My set has a mix of textured & smooth lamination...with a smooth label this should shine through and be resistant against shuffling ?
Not sure if CPC is offering this option for non-retail/professional customers.

Update: Note to myself....RTFP
Would be awsome to stamp my personal UV-logo on my chips
 
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dennis63

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Would it not be possible to implement the UV-stamp/inkt on the label before lamination ?
(...)
Not sure if CPC is offering this option for non-retail/professional customers.
Yes, have you spoken to CPC if they can do UV on the inlay,similar to a Paulson UV?
I have asked. So far this is not something CPC is offering.
 

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Hi Dennis,

Sorry if this question sounds a bit odd, but would you say that Key West Casino have plans to stick around for a good number of years ? I like to start acquiring racks periodically to complete a set but I don’t anticipate I’ll get around to completing it in a year (or maybe two.... LOL).

I don’t play poker although I am a sucker for genuine casino chips or casino-quality chips and paraphernalia. Blackjack is my pastime and I love everything about the history and ethos surrounding that table game. I play ‘informally as a hobby’ meaning I don’t frequent casinos nor wager for real. I just enjoy the mental exercise from ‘counting’. Irrespective of whether it is the annual family holiday home BJ fun night or just me playing a simulated game using Casino Verite BJ, I like to shuffle chips and simulate payouts using actual chips. Right now, I’m using the set of Empress Casino (Joliet. IL) I got from Jim during one of his Chiproom Sales back in those days when everyone was still at Chi1ptalk.

Which leads me to my next question. As a BJ dealer, can you advise, for a given min-max betting limit, on a table with 6 - 7 betting circles, how many cheques and in what denoms will a casino typically place on the chip tray ? This just harks back to me trying to simulate the feeling and vibe of using actual chips.

Lastly, do you ship to Malaysia ?

Thanks Dennis
 

dennis63

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Hi Dennis,

Sorry if this question sounds a bit odd, but would you say that Key West Casino have plans to stick around for a good number of years ? (...)

As a BJ dealer, can you advise, for a given min-max betting limit, on a table with 6 - 7 betting circles, how many cheques and in what denoms will a casino typically place on the chip tray ? (...)

Lastly, do you ship to Malaysia ?
First, I'm 56, so I plan to keep this going for another 50 years or so. Then I might slow down.

The question of how many chips -- Casinos are really different than your home game for several reasons.

First, they can put in a "fill" order any time the floor manager sees that a table is running low on a given chip.

Second, they have a chip bank that is far deeper than anything you could have in your home. At least a few hundred thousand chips. Any time they need chips of any denomination, they have them somewhere.

Third, you're probably already aware that even though those casino blackjack tables have seven betting circles, the casino usually puts five or six chairs at that table, and never really seven.

Fourth, where I worked, there was an electronic device mounted inside the rack at each blackjack table that tracked side bets and added to the progressive jackpot displays all over the casino when certain side bets were made. It looked like a blind timer or a programmable thermostat, and took up half of maybe four barrels inside the rack, so the racks actually had less room than my table at home.

Finally, the casino knows that most players are going to lose. They want to keep space in the racks open for those incoming chips.

I worked mostly $5 and $10 tables, and my casino had no chips smaller than $1, so we rounded up on an odd-numbered win. If memory serves, we opened tables with around 80 x $1; 60 x $2.50; 120 x $5; maybe 80 x 25; 40 x $100; around 10 x $500. I think we only had $500s in the racks at $10 tables, or evenings when the $5 tables would go up to $10 minimum. They had $1,000 chips at a table in the high roller room. I never had any at tables where I worked.

I do blackjack "fun night" parties every Tuesday. (There's one tomorrow.) We seat five or six people at each of two tables, and call them "$5 tables." Here's what I put in each rack:

Chip Rack 4.png


That rack is for a $5 table. It has:
60 x $0.25
40 x $1
40 x $2.50
180 x $5 (*)
40 x $25
20 x $100
10 x $500

(*) Prior to the first card coming out of the shoe, I put 120 x $5 in racks on a side table. These are the chips that get issued to the players to start the game -- one stack of 20 x $5 per player. After six players "buy" $100 in $5 chips, you still have 60 x $5 in the rack.

Ways you could add to the "real casino" feel:

  • Get a good blackjack table with a nice chip tray and a drop box. If you buy used, they're not too bad.​
  • Really nice cards and a good shoe. Bad cards and a bad shoe will really slow things down.​
  • Put four or five barrels of those $5 chips into the tray in their own rows, and have your players use fake (or real) $100 bills to buy chips, then cut the chips into four stacks of five, stack them up, push them out to the player, and put the money into the drop box;​
  • Wear a casino-style dealer uniform;​
  • Learn to do a "house shuffle." Get two cut cards and offer the shuffled working deck to a player to cut;​
  • Set up a spot light or ceiling light over the table to really light it up;​
  • Background music​

Finally, yes, we can ship to Malaysia.
 

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Flat12

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Hello again Dennis

That was a comprehensive reply. Thank you.

As I mentioned, I don't frequent casinos. We only have one in this entire country and it has some shitty BJ rules :) Yes, from what I have gleaned, BJ tables have less chairs than they have betting spots. What I was getting at there refers to situations when an individual player play multiple betting spots, but regardless, your revelation about a casino's ability to continually tap a 'fill order' for chips clarified everything for me.

Glad to hear Key West will be sticking around for at least another five decades. Here's toasting you and your 'Century' :)

I look forward to acquiring these beautiful chips from you. I will be away for the next two months, so I'll put in my first order with Key West as soon as I get home in November.

Thanks again for taking the time to write. You have a great day.

Regards
 

dennis63

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I had the painful experience of talking with a Cartamundi rep this morning about the possibility of the big cardmaker doing cut cards with a Key West logo. I began calling them weeks ago. They finally called back.

The woman with whom I spoke was dismissive, and kept interrupting. She seemed not to know what a "cut card" actually was, and kept saying, "We make playing cards." I explained to her that there are "cut cards" available from retailers all over the country," to which she replied (twice), "What are you talking about?" She seemed to think I wanted decks of plastic cards.

Finally, we got to the question about Minimum Order Quantity.

Even though I was asking about cut cards, she wanted to quote me in "decks." Their MOQ is 5,000 decks per color, 52 cards each. That's 260,000 cards.

Since I'm not even sure we were talking about the same thing, or that they know what I was asking for, we will not be working with Cartamundi.

By the end of the conversation, she was suggesting that I buy some commercial cut cards she found -- using Google during the call -- and put "stickers" on them.
 
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Thomacetti

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I might have had better luck calling Belgium.

Creating something new can, at times, feel like trying to push an elephant uphill.
Sorry you had this experience with a Belgian company...I have no contacts there...wish I could help.
In case the language barrier was a problem, you can always hit me up
 

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Trying to buy Tech Art Hole Card Peepers

One of many projects I'm trying to do in the background lately has been getting a supply of Tech Art hole card peepers. They're essentially a tiny plastic telescope installed at the blackjack table. When the dealer has an ace, 10 or face card showing, they slide their cards into the mirror to check for blackjack. I used them many times per shoe while dealing at the casino. They look like this:

These things are notoriously hard to get, even in the casino industry. The casino where I worked as a blackjack dealer had a tough time getting them, and the peepers at the table were really terrible. They were foggy and scratched from years or decades of use, and every time you looked into one, you squinted to see anything in the little window against the glare of the lights above your head. Often, you looked for the raised index, made a "best guess," and held your breath, hoping you were right before flipping the hole card. (I actually got it wrong once, but the floor supervisor blamed the crappy peeper.)

The peepers were invented by a dealer at a Las Vegas Casino who left to form the company Tech Art. I tried calling them about a year ago, but they never even answered their public phone number. Tech Art was recently purchased by a company called Scientific Games, with offices in Las Vegas.

I called them just a few minutes ago. They actually answered. The polite woman on the phone needed to know from which casino I was calling. She said, "there are licensing and regulatory issues,' and they can "only sell to licensed casinos." I was pleasantly surprised, because this is 12 words more than anyone has ever heard from GPI.

When I told her I owned a business in Delaware, she immediately put me on hold. She picked up, and I heard muffled discussion in the background, and a distant male voice. Three seconds later, they hung up. My number is now apparently blocked.

Ah, the casino industry!

I'd like to invent a better peeper (that doesn't violate their patent), and put them out of business.
um.... i'm a patent attorney, and i did a little looking around. i found a number of their old patents, but i have NOT yet found any which are not already expired. can you please share the numbers of whatever patents you believe they might try to assert/enforce?

the whole point of our patent system is that inventors get an exclusive right to practice their invention *for a limited time*, after which ownership of the invention automatically passes into the public domain.

in other words, IF their patents are all expired, you could literally make the exact same product legally, using their (expired) patents as instructions on how to "practice" the invention.
 

dennis63

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um.... i'm a patent attorney, and i did a little looking around. i found a number of their old patents, but i have NOT yet found any which are not already expired. can you please share the numbers of whatever patents you believe they might try to assert/enforce?

the whole point of our patent system is that inventors get an exclusive right to practice their invention *for a limited time*, after which ownership of the invention automatically passes into the public domain.

in other words, IF their patents are all expired, you could literally make the exact same product legally, using their (expired) patents as instructions on how to "practice" the invention.
So could a company like Scientific Games, which bought Tech Art last year, refile and obtain a new patent for the same device?

The device is called "Maxtime," and has patent numbers 5,312,104 and 5,362,053.
 

FCCDAD

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US 5,312,104 and US 5,362,053, even if they could otherwise have had later expiration dates, each had a terminal disclaimer filed and would have expired no later than August 13, 2008. These are not "live" patents that can be asserted; anyone can freely practice what they teach. Expired patents cannot be infringed upon.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/67/18/c0/7941d3d9486513/US5312104.pdf
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/60/43/5c/566928ef17a5e1/US5362053.pdf

no, no one can refile and extend their term of patent protection. that is Double Patenting, which is basically the reason they filed the terminal disclaimers - they had an original ancestor application, they filed additional continuing or divisional applications based on the same original disclosure, and the later applications could NOT extend patent protection beyond the term when the original ancestor application (or any patent deriving from it) would have expired.

you (anyone) can freely practice what these patents teach; those inventions are in the public domain now.

(also true of US 5,681,039 and US 5,039,102, by the way - both long since expired.)
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/73/9d/7f/d982e9e74de119/US5681039.pdf
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/fd/3b/b5/1ce7be75bbe075/US5039102.pdf

no charge for this legal consultation, by the way. :D

[edit] caveat: i know nothing about how casino equipment might be regulated under your (or any) state's laws. my comments extend only to the subject of patents.
 
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dennis63

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The Key West virtual blackjack game (Version 2) is ready and should be on the Key West website some time next week. The designer is off for the holiday weekend.

The game has several upgrades -- mostly small adjustments that will make play much closer to what you'd see at a casino blackjack table.

More details to come when it is actually up on the site.
 

dennis63

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Jerry at Jetacer Interactive sent the file, and a new version of the Key West free blackjack table is up and running on the Key West site.

Lots of small changes:

  • The game is larger and will take up a larger area of your screen.
  • The cards and chips were re-scanned using a high-definition scanner.
  • The dealer's face-up card is now fully exposed. The earlier version partially covered it with the dealer's hole card.
  • The dealer now checks for blackjack when showing a face card or 10. The earlier version wasn't checking for blackjack when the dealer showed a face card or 10.
  • The dealer will turn the cards 90 degrees briefly to show she is checking for blackjack, then turn them back. If the dealer has blackjack, the dealer will expose the hole card, ending the game. If there's no dealer blackjack, nothing happens and it's the player's turn. The earlier version checked for blackjack without turning the cards.
  • If the dealer's up card is an ace and you take insurance, your insurance bet will appear on the insurance line. The earlier version did not show the insurance bet on the insurance line.
  • If you double down, your final card will be dealt perpendicular to your first two cards. The earlier version dealt you one card on a double down but placed it parallel to your first two cards.
  • Chips now move to and from the player in the correct direction. Your bets come from your side. Winnings come toward you from the dealer's side.

Anyone who has played blackjack in a casino will recognize all the movements of the chips and cards as pretty standard play.

The upgrades were something I had been thinking about since the game was first created. Individually, the changes are quite minor, but together I think they really improve the game, making it more realistic, and more fun to play.
 

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I had the painful experience of talking with a Cartamundi rep this morning about the possibility of the big cardmaker doing cut cards with a Key West logo. I began calling them weeks ago. They finally called back.

The woman with whom I spoke was dismissive, and kept interrupting. She seemed not to know what a "cut card" actually was, and kept saying, "We make playing cards." I explained to her that there are "cut cards" available from retailers all over the country," to which she replied (twice), "What are you talking about?" She seemed to think I wanted decks of plastic cards.

Finally, we got to the question about Minimum Order Quantity.

Even though I was asking about cut cards, she wanted to quote me in "decks." Their MOQ is 5,000 decks per color, 52 cards each. That's 260,000 cards.

Since I'm not even sure we were talking about the same thing, or that they know what I was asking for, we will not be working with Cartamundi.

By the end of the conversation, she was suggesting that I buy some commercial cut cards she found -- using Google during the call -- and put "stickers" on them.
You can order custom cut cards from @MatB in this thread:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/custom-cut-card-interest-thread-round-5.45761/
 
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andy699669

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For Blackjack games, how many of the snappers (2 or 2.5) do you recommend to have relative to the fivers?
 

dennis63

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For Blackjack games, how many of the snappers (2 or 2.5) do you recommend to have relative to the fivers?
There really is no fixed ratio. You could do a 2-to-1 $5s to $2,50s or even 3 or 4 to 1 and you'd be fine. For the rack I'm using, 60 x $2.50 is probably too many, but it would appear to a player to be lots of $2.50s ready to get paid out.
 

andy699669

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There really is no fixed ratio. You could do a 2-to-1 $5s to $2,50s or even 3 or 4 to 1 and you'd be fine. For the rack I'm using, 60 x $2.50 is probably too many, but it would appear to a player to be lots of $2.50s ready to get paid out.
And how about for higher limits where the lowest chip is 25? Do I need 5s as well?
 

dennis63

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And how about for higher limits where the lowest chip is 25? Do I need 5s as well?
Yes, $5s and some $2.50s.

If your player bets $25 and wins, you pay him $25. Easy.

When he bets $25 and gets blackjack, the payout is $37.50 -- usually paid with 1 x $25 next to the winning bet and (in a separate stack) 2 x $5 and 1 x $2.50, to show the blackjack bonus.

That's still pretty easy.

Let's say he leaves the $37.50 in the circle and gets another blackjack. (Rare, but I've had it happen.)

The payout is $56.25 --- $37.50 chip-for-chip, plus $18.75, so you'll either need $1s and quarters or you could round up to the nearest of your smallest denomination.

Most dealers will take the player's single stack and break it down for the camera, then put the matchimg chips next to it to show the one-for-one part, then the chips that make up the blackjack bonus.

Good dealers do this very quickly and always "go out with" the right chips in the right order to quickly drop them in the right spot. It can be a challenge.
 
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andy699669

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Yes, $5s and some $2.50s.

If your player bets $25 and wins, you pay him $25. Easy.

When he bets $25 and gets blackjack, the payout is $37.50 -- usually paid with 1 x $25 next to the winning bet and (in a separate stack) 2 x $5 and 1 x $2.50, to show the blackjack bonus.

That's still pretty easy.

Let's say he leaves the $37.50 in the circle and gets another blackjack. (Rare, but I've had it happen.)

The payout is $56.25 --- $37.50 chip-for-chip, plus $18.75, so you'll either need $1s and quarters or you could round up to the nearest of your smallest denomination.

Most dealers will take the player's single stack and break it down for the camera, then put the matchimg chips next to it to show the one-for-one part, then the chips that make up the blackjack bonus.

Good dealers do this very quickly and always "go out with" the right chips in the right order to quickly drop them in the right spot. It can be a challenge.
Or, if I only want to have the lowest chip to be 5s, should I restrict all bets to be only in multiples of 10?
 

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Or, if I only want to have the lowest chip to be 5s, should I restrict all bets to be only in multiples of 10?
Yes. Setting a $10 minimum would keep it simple. Bets = $10, payouts = $10 / $15.

We do a version of this at our Tuesday blackjack events.
 

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Hi Dennis,

I'm just a weeks away from getting back and settling down and that is when I will start acquiring a Key West set over a period of time.

I do plan on getting every denom because I want to collect every type of chip ever made for the Key West brand.

I will put in my order by racks, but is there any particular denom or minimum quantity per order that is required to make things do-able at your end ?

Thanks
 

dennis63

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Hi Dennis,

I'm just a weeks away from getting back and settling down and that is when I will start acquiring a Key West set over a period of time.

I do plan on getting every denom because I want to collect every type of chip ever made for the Key West brand.

I will put in my order by racks, but is there any particular denom or minimum quantity per order that is required to make things do-able at your end ?

Thanks
No, there's no minimum. You can get a sample set, or one chip, or 1,000 chips.

Chips, playing cards and racks tend to be heavy and bulky. To save money, we always recommend ordering in quantities that work to reduce your shipping cost.

As an example, shipping 20 chips in a plain cardboard box can cost the same as small flat rate box filled with 50 or 60 chips.

Flat rate boxes tend to be the most economical way to ship, but we'll always compare the cost of shipping flat rate to shipping by size and weight.

Consider adding what I call "drop-in items," the small things that will fit into a package without adding to the box weight or cost. If you are using a flat rate box to get 300 chips, adding some playing cards, a dealer button or some cut cards won't increase the cost of shipping. The extra items essentially ride for free.

Also check our used chip page and the classifieds here for some used Key West chips to reduce your cost.

Finally, don't order on the Key West site, where prices are set higher. As a member here, you get a PCF discount on Key West chips. If you let me know what your long-term goal for your set will be, I will be happy to work with you on how to best get that exact set on your home table.
 
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