Is this cheating? (1 Viewer)

[LotsOfChips]

A bit of a twist on the question in a different thread where a player was seen to be observing and/or manipulating the deck while shuffling:

Is it cheating to watch the deck being shuffled and cut?

Often sloppy shufflers expose a lot of bottom cards on each riffle, and an observant player might gain some information.

If you don't have any way of manipulating the deck through this, is this type of observation cheating, poor sportsmanship or valid part of the game? (I would lean to poor sportsmanship, just wondering how others see it)

Edit - changed to "shuffling" not "dealing"

 

[Jeevansluck]

Id say maybe if you are observing it happen with a dealer frequently, maybe let them know privately or even announce it.

Hard to call it cheating but if you are using a dealer's weakness to your advantage over your opponents, I'd have to classify it as cheating on some level.

An intriguing question

 

[arch3r]

+1 poor sportsmanship.

If someone is exposing cards, whether it's while dealing, or checking their hole cards, or whenever, and I notice, I'll point it out.

 

[Hot Nuts]

I always point it out. If I didn't, then heck yeah I'd be observing because someone else might be observing too.

 

[trigs]

This just happened to me this weekend more or less. I was shuffling and as I was pulling the cards together one kind of flashed by accident. One player who happened to see it immediately said that he saw the deuce of hearts (or whatever) so I reshuffled. I would admit to seeing any card as well.

 

[shorticus]

I've been in a situation where this has happened before, but it was not with the deck. I've been able to see a player's hand because he would lift his cards up to his face. I immediately folded and told said player that when he does that I can see his hand.

In your case, I'd make it known that I've seen cards because of how the deck was shuffled, and either reshuffle or expose seen cards as burn cards for the current hand.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Id say maybe if you are observing it happen with a dealer frequently, maybe let them know privately or even announce it.

Hard to call it cheating but if you are using a dealer's weakness to your advantage over your opponents, I'd have to classify it as cheating on some level.

An intriguing question

Yes, hard to say definitively cheating, because all players have the same opportunity to watch the deck being shuffled (although in my experience most players don't). But also seems less than ethical.

I've been in a situation where this has happened before, but it was not with the deck. I've been able to see a player's hand because he would lift his cards up to his face. I immediately folded and told said player that when he does that I can see his hand.

In your case, I'd make it known that I've seen cards because of how the deck was shuffled, and either reshuffle or expose seen cards as burn cards for the current hand.

It would be pretty hard to burn the card(s), as poor shufflers can expose several bottom of each stack cards on every riffle, and the cards in question are probably near the bottom of the deck before the cut. This could be used by an observer, who may know the approximate location of certain cards before and after the cut.

I agree that a word of caution to the shuffler is in order, but poor technique usually doesn't change just because it is pointed out. Another argument for the ShuffleTech, I guess

 

[inca911]

Give it whatever name that you feel is appropriate, but having knowledge that is not available to the table due to dealer lapses in technique seems like an ethical no-no in a home game. I frequently pick out cards with peripheral vision when a deck is being shuffled for me, and I politely remind the person to protect the deck as it is shuffled. I then shuffle and remix the deck completely, always requiring another individual complete a cut. If I'm dealing, someone other than the shuffler always must cut the deck, no knocks allowed. By implementing consistent standards, you are protecting the game and its players. To me, that is the most important job for any host.

That said, if you are at a casino and see a player's cards next to you since they are not protecting them well enough, I feel you should tell them to give them an opportunity to correct the issue. After that verbal alert, I think they are fair game....

 

[shorticus]

Yes, hard to say definitively cheating, because all players have the same opportunity to watch the deck being shuffled (although in my experience most players don't). But also seems less than ethical.


It would be pretty hard to burn the card(s), as poor shufflers can expose several bottom of each stack cards on every riffle, and the cards in question are probably near the bottom of the deck before the cut. This could be used by an observer, who may know the approximate location of certain cards before and after the cut.

I agree that a word of caution to the shuffler is in order, but poor technique usually doesn't change just because it is pointed out. Another argument for the ShuffleTech, I guess

Shuffletech or a single dealer (with a sound shuffling technique) who passes around a cut card. That's the best solution that I can offer up.

 

[Forty4]

Which was exactly why I said he will spin it as no different than exposed hand/cards. To him it’s just an angle.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Give it whatever name that you feel is appropriate, but having knowledge that is not available to the table due to dealer lapses in technique seems like an ethical no-no in a home game. I frequently pick out cards with peripheral vision when a deck is being shuffled for me, and I politely remind the person to protect the deck as it is shuffled. I then shuffle and remix the deck completely, always requiring another individual complete a cut. If I'm dealing, someone other than the shuffler always must cut the deck, no knocks allowed. By implementing consistent standards, you are protecting the game and its players. To me, that is the most important job for any host.

I have witnessed @inca911 do this in person. It is always done polite to the offender and with the right group of people the offender won't want to keep being politely embarrassed.

And I agree - any information gained that is not available to the rest of the table is at a minimum poor sportsmanship.

 

[Beakertwang]

We were playing a $10 family game over the summer. One of my family members (to protect his identity, let's just say his initials are FIL ), just completely ignored the cut card, and basically all the shuffling and dealing procedures. He dismissed them as silly, and did it however he wanted. He also exposed about half of the cards he dealt, burned, or put on the board. The other 4 all caught on, and were all in cahoots, using it against him, occasionally casting knowing glances at each other. FIL still won all the money.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Which was exactly why I said he will spin it as no different than exposed hand/cards. To him it’s just an angle.

Sorry, I don't quite follow. Who is he/him? And where/when did you say that?

 

[Forty4]

Sorry, I don't quite follow. Who is he/him? And where/when did you say that?

I said it in the other thread

 

[LotsOfChips]

I said it in the other thread

Got it. It was probably buried deep on page 4 or 7 or something.

 

[Steve Birrer]

The problem is that depending on how the shuffler is messing up not all the players may have an "equal opportunity" to see those exposed cards. It could easily just be the player on either side of them.

Very poor sportsmanship to not call it out and let everyone know you saw some cards.

 

[Gobbs]

I’ve been in the situation in which only players to the dealers left could see the burn cards (and occasionally shuffled cars). The first couple times, I very politely and discreetly mentioned it to the dealer. When he blew me off and it happened again, I announced that I saw the burn card. The very next burn card, I saw it again and announced that I’d seen it again. Half the table told me to stop looking, the other half (including the TD) understood and told the dealer to take care. Eventually, the guy did better, but it took me and a couple other players (and the TD) continually announcing flashed cards and embarrassing the guy to get him to follow procedures and stop.

 

[RiverKingCali]

+1 poor sportsmanship.

If someone is exposing cards, whether it's while dealing, or checking their hole cards, or whenever, and I notice, I'll point it out.

This. We play amongst friends and family. I have told people to keep the card low when dealing because you can get a glimpse of it.