ID Please - TR King Small Crowns w/ Lattice ?? (1 Viewer)

[Jeff in Iowa]

If the hotstamp is done absolutely perfectly, and the surface is completely flat, the foil just adheres to the surface , and it's like the chip wasn't even pressed at all.

I have never been able to do that. (Although I just have a little hand stamping machine) So what usually happens is that the temperature is just a little too hot, and there is just a little too much pressure, and the surface is just a little bit bowed. This results in some clay being displaced (up and around the hotstamp) , with the foil print being pushed deeper into the surface of the chip. The sides of the displacement (flashing) also gets some foil stuck to it. All of this is then scraped, taking both the excess foil and the displaced clay off of the chip.

Thanks for that detailed explanation about the flashing phenomena.

The more I inspect these chips, the more I think they might be made out of a more plastic like material. If plastic can be hot stamped in the way you describe, these chips may have been an 1940s attempt by Mason to make and sell their own chips, and cut USPC/Burt out from the process. If so, apparently there was something they did not like about the chips, because they ended up sticking with Burt made chips until they stopped selling them in the 1980s.

 

[Racer96]

Super diamonds (plastic) and even dice chips have been hot stamped. So it is definitely possible.

To make such a deep imprint would take more pressure and more heat than I would want to put onto a compressed clay chip, but plastic would behave differently.

Sadly, I have used too much heat and too much pressure on some test chips, and the results are not very pretty, lol.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Technically speaking "clay" is plastic, but there were at least a few different types of plastic in use around that time. It's conceivable - perhaps even likely! - that chipmakers were experimenting with different formulas and producing some batches using different materials than their normal batches.

 

[gmunny]

You know you might be on to something. The dark blue sailboat chip feels different, as it lighter than most hub mold chips. I just weighed it and it is just shy of 5 grams, the yellow sailboat is 6.5 grams, and the Hub Club chips are 8.5 and 8.4 grams. The Hub Club and dark sailboat chips have a more reflective and a smoother surface than the few other old hub mold chips I just picked up to compare them to.

Also, I just looked up Spragg's post on "flashing" and he describes it like you do as being the excess foil material that needs to be scraped off with a blade. I had thought that the hot stamping process would produce excess (i.e. pushed up) clay material too, as that has to go somewhere, right?

All the old chips from pre-40s are really light. Even some old Large Crowns i have. I'll try to weigh some later this week.

 

[BGinGA]

Fwiw, I'm firmly in the clay-blanks-hotstamped-without-foil-and-all-recesses-paint-filled camp.

It's the only way you're getting identical material in both the hot-stamped and compression-molded recesses.

 

[gmunny]

Ok. Was able to weigh some of my older chips. Still looking for more, so will add some as i find them. None of the ones I weighed were under 6g and most in the 7-9g range. Having one under 5g is very curious, though I don't have a lot chips from the 1930s so not a whole lot of sample size to start with. The older chips tend to be from illegal clubs and I focus more on Nevada casinos. More weights are posted here if anyone is interested.. https://flic.kr/s/aHsmS7gcuy

Hub Molds
Chip Guide says Marcell's was open in 1936; Clover UFC date unknown; Mason Sample date unknown

Other old molds

One thing to note is the metal die cuts were from the 1940s and some had very intricate designs. Not sure if its the same foil as hot stamps or how they stay on the chip. There also were older die cut paper inlays too.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

You've got some really nice chips gmunny.

The dark sailboat, at 4.79 grams, is lighter than any other USPC/Burt chip that I have. It is made out of a different lighter more plastic like material. I suspect that it may have been made by Mason, or another manufacturer. I know it sounds strange, but I am now favoring the theory that the mold and the center image were created at the same time. Below it I've posted one of my heaviest Burt chips, at 13.37 grams, a B. C. Wills "Tri-Heavy-Weight" sample chip.

F. A. Kirsting chip (circa 1941)

Tri-Heavy

 

[BGinGA]

An x-ray of that LGK Tri chip should reveal added weight(s) under the inlay.

 

[CrazyEddie]

One thing to note is the metal die cuts were from the 1940s and some had very intricate designs. Not sure if its the same foil as hot stamps or how they stay on the chip. There also were older die cut paper inlays too.

Awesome chips! And great information, thanks for sharing. I'm pretty sure that the die-cut inlays, whether metal, paper, or plastic, were pressed into the chip surface during the compression molding step - just like is done with laminated circular inlays today. The inlays were cut out of their own material using a die, then one was laid underneath and one on top of the circular chip blank inside the mold. Then the chip was pressed and heated, forcing the inlays+chip to conform to the mold, making a smooth surface hard surface once the chip had cured.

I don't think the metal inlays would have been made out of hotstamp foil. They'd have to be fairly thick and solid to be handled; they have to be cut and stored, and the press operator has to take them out of a bin and lay them flat in the mold. That would be difficult if they were as thin and delicate as foil.

You can see an example of a die-cut inlay here, where I pried one loose from one of my Paranoid chips. This one is plastic. It's about as thick as two or three playing cards; it flexes a bit but is mostly rigid, rigid enough to easily handle. I bet the die-cut metal inlays are similar, but if I had one I don't think I'd pry it apart to find out.

 

[mtl mile end]

Awesome chips! And great information, thanks for sharing. I'm pretty sure that the die-cut inlays, whether metal, paper, or plastic, were pressed into the chip surface during the compression molding step - just like is done with laminated circular inlays today. The inlays were cut out of their own material using a die, then one was laid underneath and one on top of the circular chip blank inside the mold. Then the chip was pressed and heated, forcing the inlays+chip to conform to the mold, making a smooth surface hard surface once the chip had cured.

I don't think the metal inlays would have been made out of hotstamp foil. They'd have to be fairly thick and solid to be handled; they have to be cut and stored, and the press operator has to take them out of a bin and lay them flat in the mold. That would be difficult if they were as thin and delicate as foil.

You can see an example of a die-cut inlay here, where I pried one loose from one of my Paranoid chips. This one is plastic. It's about as thick as two or three playing cards; it flexes a bit but is mostly rigid, rigid enough to easily handle. I bet the die-cut metal inlays are similar, but if I had one I don't think I'd pry it apart to find out.

The process used to clean off the surface of a chip with a die cut inlay could be similar to that used to clean off the Hub Mold chips with the "painted" indents.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

An x-ray of that LGK Tri chip should reveal added weight(s) under the inlay.

So you're saying it's a sluggo?

 

[BGinGA]

So you're saying it's a sluggo?

Yep. Some early clay chips were manufactured with weights under the inlay -- especially those that weigh more than 8g-9g.

 

[califchips]

Certainly my friend.

View attachment 570206
View attachment 570207

I have a few purple small crown chips with the
same exact cancellation mark . If I remember correctly - you can partially see the name of a
San Francisco card room / club under the gold .
Will have to locate the chip(s) .

I have a few purple small crown chips with the
same exact cancellation mark . If I remember correctly - you can partially see the name of a
San Francisco card room / club under the gold .
Will have to locate the chip(s) .

Follow-up on my previous reply .
Located the chips .
I have gray small crown chips with a similar
cancellation mark . ( cross-mark pattern )
I have purple small crown chips with the cross-mark pattern and a few with a swirl cancellation
mark .
I have a few purple Large Crown chips with both
the cross-mark pattern and the swirl cancellation
mark . Have one chip where you can make out the name of a San Francisco card room under the gold - which is the Mahjong Club ( might
have it misspelled )

Follow-up on my previous reply .
Located the chips .
I have gray small crown chips with a similar
cancellation mark . ( cross-mark pattern )
I have purple small crown chips with the cross-mark pattern and a few with a swirl cancellation
mark .
I have a few purple Large Crown chips with both
the cross-mark pattern and the swirl cancellation
mark . Have one chip where you can make out the name of a San Francisco card room under the gold - which is the Mahjong Club ( might
have it misspelled )

Further examination of the purple Large Crown chips has both the cross-mark pattern on one side and the swirl pattern on the other side .

 

[CrazyEddie]

@califchips - Thanks for the additional info. Would love to see these chips! Any chance you could post some pictures?