ID Please - TR King Small Crowns w/ Lattice ?? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter CrazyEddie
- Start date
Hey @gmunny , you explained it perfectly. It's the 2nd thing; the stamp is indented in the clay and foil fills the indent. This lattice pattern has the same effect in Lattice Cherry Pie.
mtl mile end
Flush
I took a different picture to help back up my ‘cherry pie’ explanation. Looking back, it’s sounds kind of funny to post the pie picture but my intent was to put it in terms that made sense and to me it did. What I should have done was taken these pictures yesterday.
That second stamp really did a lot of damage to the chip face in the OP.
Jeff in Iowa
Pair
I think that the OP chip has only been stamped once, as I don't see any evidence of a previous hot stamp.
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Jeff in Iowa
Pair
These chips have always been a hot stamp mystery for me. Some years ago, I showed the top two chips on The Chip Board, and no one was sure how they were made. Someone thought it was possible that they were hot stamped without any foil, and then afterwards metallic paint was applied to the total surface of the chip, including the hub mold edges, and finally the excess metallic paint was scraped off the surface of the chip.
Whatever the process, I've only seen it on a very few hub mold chips.
Whatever the process, I've only seen it on a very few hub mold chips.
By first stamp, I suppose I really mean the compression process that made the mold recesses. The cancellation stamp was done very poorly, or perhaps there was warping in the chip, because there is melted chip material at the edge of the recesses.
My guess is that they were hotstamped with foil. Either over time the foil faded away, or someone tried to clean them and the solvent ate the foil. Then the chips were touched up with a gold paint pen, and the person doing it also filled in the mold with the paint pen.
Jeff in Iowa
Pair
That is a good guess, except that I believe that those "Hub Club" chips and that blue F. A. Kirsting chip are only known to have that extra foil in the edge mold design. There are no examples that do not have foil in the edge design.
For example, see this ChipGuide listing; http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=ILCHSP&sort=type
Probably just hot-stamped into the mold recess. Nothing fancy.
Jeff in Iowa
Pair
Yes, I see what you mean now. I think that excess material is called "flashing". David Spragg in a post described how flashing was a real problem with hot stamped small crown chips, as the recess was shallow and I think slightly concave. T. R. King had to routinely scrape off the "flashing" from hot stamped small crown chips, and you can often see these scrape marks on some of their old small crown hot stamped chips. I have some chips like that.
The chip that PAZ posted probably had to have a lot of flashing removed, as I never have seen a hot stamp that displaced so much material.
OP
OP
CrazyEddie
Full House
Hot-stamped into the mold recess sounds like a pretty difficult operation. I haven't run a hotstamp machine myself (attn @AK Chip - any insights here?) but from what I understand that would require a hotstamp die that was identical to the mold die, and some tricky work to align it perfectly.
Maybe the chips were made with a plain mold (i.e. no mold impression, just a smooth surface) and then the mold was somehow repurposed into a hotstamp die, so that the "mold impression" is actually just a hotstamp itself, perhaps made with a lot of force to make a deep impression?
Nevermind
That would probably take a compression press, which would lead to a whole bunch of other problems. That would also still require some good alignment to avoid an off-center mold. Now that I think about it, @Racer96’s theory seems the most likely.
mtl mile end
Flush
What if the Hub Mold hotstamp effect was a service offered by Burt, or ASM or whoever to the distributor - in this case probably Mason and Co.
They could have done this by taking a high pressure molded Plain Mold, switching out the cups for a Hub Mold, and inserting foil for a low pressure (for Burt anyway) press.
They could have done this by taking a high pressure molded Plain Mold, switching out the cups for a Hub Mold, and inserting foil for a low pressure (for Burt anyway) press.
mtl mile end
Flush
Shh...
mtl mile end
Flush
OK, if that complicates the process, how about high pressure Plain Mold chip made, chip transferred to hotstamp process, chip hotstamped with custom "Hub Mold Hotstamp" - by the manufacturer who owns rights to Hub Mold.
EDIT: this would account for smooth vs crosshatched issues in logic if Hub Mold is crosshatched (I don't know the Hub Mold).
EDIT: this would account for smooth vs crosshatched issues in logic if Hub Mold is crosshatched (I don't know the Hub Mold).
I would like to direct you to my gif posted above once again.
mtl mile end
Flush
I just have a hard time imagining anyone "painting in" the "hotstamp" since these chips were unlikely to have seen a sweatshop full of nimble, prepubescent fingers (and eyes).
Painted in and wiped off the surface with the right solvent I could buy.
Painted in and wiped off the surface with the right solvent I could buy.
Jeff in Iowa
Pair
Those sailboat chips were shipped by Mason and Co. in 1941, so they were actually made by the United States Playing Card Co., before they transferred that mold to the Burt Co. around 1947. The "Hub Club" chips were likely made by the USPC Co., but also possibly Burt.
I've been told that USPC and especially Burt did not hot stamp chips at all. It was something done only by distributors. If distributors like Mason had access to some type of hydraulic press that could make a perfect total chip hot stamp like that, then they could have just made all of their own chips from scratch, and would not have needed to buy their hub mold chips from Burt.
I found those "Hub Club" chips listed on the ChipGuide: http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=UFHUCW&v=2855361054
Even the very worn ones show signs of the foil or metallic paint over the whole chip.
The most interesting part of looking at all those pictures, is the inside ring at the 7 o'clock position and the outer ring at the 4 o'clock position seem to show wear across several of the chips.
I could reproduce the effect on each chip fairly easily, however, seeing more of them like this, does make me think that your comment on the whole chip being covered in the gold material, and then having it scraped off seems more likely.
Jeff in Iowa
Pair
I see that extra wear at 7 o'clock on the inner ring of each one of those chips. I am guessing that the mold itself must be slightly more shallow at that spot, and therefor it gets worn there more quickly. The truly bizarre thing is that the hot stamp design on each one of those chips is perfectly aligned to that imperfection in the mold. The center hot stamp should be placed and aligned randomly on the chip as it is placed in the hot stamp machine.
I can't figure it out. These chips have always been a mystery to me.
Is it possible that those chips are actually made of plastic? There are some shiny spots on some of the chips that in the picture anyways , look more like a plastic, than a compression clay.
If that is the case, then I could possibly see a hot stamp die being used to press the entire surface of a plastic chip (like @mtl mile end was alluding to), that would not squish and deform like a compression clay. That would also lead to excess foil material being pressed onto the raised/flush surface of the chip, which would need to be scraped away.
If that is the case, then I could possibly see a hot stamp die being used to press the entire surface of a plastic chip (like @mtl mile end was alluding to), that would not squish and deform like a compression clay. That would also lead to excess foil material being pressed onto the raised/flush surface of the chip, which would need to be scraped away.
Jeff in Iowa
Pair
You know you might be on to something. The dark blue sailboat chip feels different, as it lighter than most hub mold chips. I just weighed it and it is just shy of 5 grams, the yellow sailboat is 6.5 grams, and the Hub Club chips are 8.5 and 8.4 grams. The Hub Club and dark sailboat chips have a more reflective and a smoother surface than the few other old hub mold chips I just picked up to compare them to.
Also, I just looked up Spragg's post on "flashing" and he describes it like you do as being the excess foil material that needs to be scraped off with a blade. I had thought that the hot stamping process would produce excess (i.e. pushed up) clay material too, as that has to go somewhere, right?
If the hotstamp is done absolutely perfectly, and the surface is completely flat, the foil just adheres to the surface , and it's like the chip wasn't even pressed at all.
I have never been able to do that. (Although I just have a little hand stamping machine) So what usually happens is that the temperature is just a little too hot, and there is just a little too much pressure, and the surface is just a little bit bowed. This results in some clay being displaced (up and around the hotstamp) , with the foil print being pushed deeper into the surface of the chip. The sides of the displacement (flashing) also gets some foil stuck to it. All of this is then scraped, taking both the excess foil and the displaced clay off of the chip.
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