I get away from a lot, but this one? Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[aaron2786]

Playing $1/$3 cash after a tourney bust yesterday, sat with $400, run up to $625 in an hour and the. Face this hand.

Hero (yeah me) sitting in the SB, folds to the HJ who limps $3, Villain on the Button raises to $10. Context, our local room rarely goes to a flop that small, and most hands have at least an open to $18 to $25, so I try and go gentle for a caller. I look down at K9HH, click to $20, HJ folds, button flat calls.

Flop 678HHH

I'm fine with winning in 3, it's been a fun day of being friendly so I put out $65 in the SB. Button (total stack behind is $287), thinks for a minute and raises to $145. So here I'm sitting with the second nut flush and the up and down straight flush redraw. I know where this is going.

I think, ok he has exactly AXH or....

Any two hearts
A of Hearts plus a pair
Set
Two pair flopped (given how connected the flop is)
Made straight
Up and down straight draw and top pair
Broadway pocket pair

Anyway you slice it, it sure looks like he's the guy that wants to win on the flop now. Flat calling is out of I think he has a redraw himself, folding seems insane (I'm looking at 7ish possibilities he is behind me and exactly one where I am.)


So I call all in. He snap calls.

I show the K9HH for the second nut flush and the up/down straight flush draw.

Villian turns up A10HH for the nut flush and turns my up and down redraw into a one outter for the 5 of hearts. Board runs out Q of clubs, 5 of ....diamonds. ouch.


Does anyone get away here or is that always a loss? I'm a guy that's folded pocket kings pre, knowing a guy had Aces, I'm very tight and aggressive for most of my play.. I just don't see a different way of playing that one.


Anyone?

 

[JMC9389]

I would have checked flop. Out of position, you should be checking just about 99% of your holdings on that kind of wet board.

 

[aaron2786]

I would have checked flop. Out of position, you should be checking just about 99% of your holdings on that kind of wet board.

Ok, let's say I check that flop, after being the true pre flop aggressor, then he bets my original $65.. what are you doing then? Surely you have to consider he is drawing to an Ace high flush as a possibility and you don't want them to get there, so whatdya do?

 

[tallsbutler]

Super tough. I think I would’ve done the exact same.

 

[JMC9389]

Ok, let's say I check that flop, after being the true pre flop aggressor, then he bets my original $65.. what are you doing then? Surely you have to consider he is drawing to an Ace high flush as a possibility and you don't want them to get there, so whatdya do?

Just call and look for the board to pair to give you outs to fold.

But seriously, I'm not getting away from this either. GG, rebuy!

 

[Budha]

Ok, let's say I check that flop, after being the true pre flop aggressor, then he bets my original $65.. what are you doing then? Surely you have to consider he is drawing to an Ace high flush as a possibility and you don't want them to get there, so whatdya do?

I’m not sure I get away from that hand either. The re-raise is a flag, but in that situation with 2nd nut flush (and open ended st8 flush draw) it’s hard to lay that down. I would have played it the same. (Unless I had some experience with this player and had a strong read, but even still - I’m probably still playing it the same - lol)

If you just call the re-raise. It’s still likely ending up as an all-in hand. You just accelerated the inevitable.

 

[aaron2786]

Just call and look for the board to pair to give you outs to fold.

But seriously, I'm not getting away from this either. GG, rebuy!

Possibly, but I'm not wanting to see fold outs, who is? Honestly reverse our hands and I think it still plays the exact same way it did.


But yeah, it was the dream win/nightmare lose scenario we all want to be on the winning side of. Luckily he had less than half my stack, and I got to call it a day lol

 

[aaron2786]

I’m not sure I get away from that hand either. The re-raise is a flag, but in that situation with 2nd nut flush it’s hard to lay that down. I would have played it the same. (Unless I had some experience with this player and had a strong read, but even still - I’m probably still playing it the same - lol)

If you just call the re-raise. It’s still likely ending up as an all-in hand. You just accelerated the inevitable.

Exactly, I wanted to either put him in with a chance of a worse hand paying me off, or one the one shot he has AX hearts, I still have the up n down SF draw as an out. I'd seen him play fairly loose and already reload twice in the hour I was there, so eh... We can't win em all. I agree though, there was no way his stack wasn't going in on a brick turn like Qclubs anyway.

 

[Budha]

I'd seen him play fairly loose and already reload twice in the hour I was there,

Yeah ^^, I’m definitely playing it the same then . 100%

 

[MichaelBubly]

That's a pretty sick cooler on the flop I think. I'm probably getting it in heads up hoping to be up against a set or two pair of deny a naked Ace of hearts.

We had similar spot last night. Mono tone flop. All hearts. I check an open ended straight flush draw with a 10 high flush already made.

BB who 3 bet preflop opens to pot. Button 3 bets to 2.5x the open. I shove hoping to run it twice for the redraw. bB calls. Button folds face up the king high flush.

Ran it once and I hold against AA with the AH

 

[aaron2786]

That's a pretty sick cooler on the flop I think. I'm probably getting it in heads up hoping to be up against a set or two pair of deny a naked Ace of hearts.

We had similar spot last night. Mono tone flop. All hearts. I check an open ended straight flush draw with a 10 high flush already made.

BB who 3 bet preflop opens to pot. Button 3 bets to 2.5x the open. I shove hoping to run it twice for the redraw. bB calls. Button folds face up the king high flush.

Ran it once and I hold against AA with the AH

Yeah see this is exactly my position. There are tons of things that are going to play exactly how he did. Flopping two pair, or a set, straight, AH with a made pair, made smaller flush than me Q,J,10 high. Then his play makes it really looks like he doesn't want ME to pull out the nuts on him. Reverse our holding as well, give him the K9HH and me the ATHH and I think it plays the same. Just a pure loser. *Shrug*.. everyone gets coolered. Shiiiiit that's the whole inciting incident of Rounders lol. Now I just need a redemption that involves three stacks of high society and a Vegas trip lol

 

[Mike mac]

im never folding that, never ever.

 

[Senzrock]

Playing $1/$3 cash after a tourney bust yesterday, sat with $400, run up to $625 in an hour and the. Face this hand.

Hero (yeah me) sitting in the SB, folds to the HJ who limps $3, Villain on the Button raises to $10. Context, our local room rarely goes to a flop that small, and most hands have at least an open to $18 to $25, so I try and go gentle for a caller. I look down at K9HH, click to $20, HJ folds, button flat calls.

Flop 678HHH

I'm fine with winning in 3, it's been a fun day of being friendly so I put out $65 in the SB. Button (total stack behind is $287), thinks for a minute and raises to $145. So here I'm sitting with the second nut flush and the up and down straight flush redraw. I know where this is going.

I think, ok he has exactly AXH or....

Any two hearts
A of Hearts plus a pair
Set
Two pair flopped (given how connected the flop is)
Made straight
Up and down straight draw and top pair
Broadway pocket pair

Anyway you slice it, it sure looks like he's the guy that wants to win on the flop now. Flat calling is out of I think he has a redraw himself, folding seems insane (I'm looking at 7ish possibilities he is behind me and exactly one where I am.)


So I call all in. He snap calls.

I show the K9HH for the second nut flush and the up/down straight flush draw.

Villian turns up A10HH for the nut flush and turns my up and down redraw into a one outter for the 5 of hearts. Board runs out Q of clubs, 5 of ....diamonds. ouch.


Does anyone get away here or is that always a loss? I'm a guy that's folded pocket kings pre, knowing a guy had Aces, I'm very tight and aggressive for most of my play.. I just don't see a different way of playing that one.


Anyone?

No. Never.

More importantly, we should *never* be looking to get away from the 2nd nuts w/redraws, we should be thinking of creative (or straight forward) ways to pile the money in. The biggest challenge with (super standard coolers) hands like these is to not have them impact our play *moving forward*. Many people have a hand (or two or three) like this and it changes their entire mindset, focusing heavily on how to “lose the minimum” instead of how to win the maximum all the times when it isn’t a setup. I hope you can draw the right conclusions from this hand - which is, if I had to be really blunt about it, that it’s not really a hand worth posting because it’s just such a cooler that there’s really not much to even say about it if that makes sense.

Unlucky hand but hopefully it wont make you too conservative moving forward. GL!

 

[aaron2786]

No. Never.

More importantly, we should *never* be looking to get away from the 2nd nuts w/redraws, we should be thinking of creative (or straight forward) ways to pile the money in. The biggest challenge with (super standard coolers) hands like these is to not have them impact our play *moving forward*. Many people have a hand (or two or three) like this and it changes their entire mindset, focusing heavily on how to “lose the minimum” instead of how to win the maximum all the times when it isn’t a setup. I hope you can draw the right conclusions from this hand - which is, if I had to be really blunt about it, that it’s not really a hand worth posting because it’s just such a cooler that there’s really not much to even say about it if that makes sense.

Unlucky hand but hopefully it wont make you too conservative moving forward. GL!

Agreed. No it isn't going to change my play, facing the exact same situation in the future it's more than likely it'll be one of the other scenarios I posted that I'd be up against. Tourney end of my day was losing Aces full of kings to Quad Aces, AAAK4, board - holding KT spades. Dude has the case Ace. Eh. Shiiiiit happens. Do send me some run good though lol, I've got our 30K (usually ends up around 45K) this coming weekend.

 

[FordPickup92]

How regularly do you play here? How often do you play or show small suited connectors?

 

[aaron2786]

How regularly do you play here? How often do you play or show small suited connectors?

I play fairly regularly, probably 50ish cash games in the last 18 months there, and tournaments as well. I very rarely show hands , unless I'm giving a guy a break and showing he made a good lay down. The guy this hand was against has never played with me before and had only seen me for about an hour, over which I showed zero hands.

 

[aaron2786]

How regularly do you play here? How often do you play or show small suited connectors?

I was a little low... 65 visits in the last 12 months... Is..is that too many? Lol

 

[Jimulacrum]

After the hearts flop, I don't see myself getting away from this at all, especially with the providing 2 backup outs.

I've folded kings preflop a bunch of times too. It's a second-nut hand, sure, but you have the benefit of the pot being smaller to start, and the cases for a fold are usually when a very tight, passive player 4-bets (or more), or multiple tight players are all making very strong moves such that the chance no one has aces is slim.

In this spot, Villain could have a lot of hands. There's no realistic way to narrow his range down to an ace-high flush. He could have any flush, a naked , the with a pair, a straight with or without a heart, or even a set. And those are just the reasonable hands. You're even the preflop aggressor, so he may have interpreted your bet as a mere c-bet and decided to make a play against you on a scary board with nothing.

The only play I can see going differently to save you is preflop. You're in worst position with K9s, with only $1 in (i.e., it costs you almost the full bet to call).

Why 3-bet? Why even get involved?

 

[MrRossKeys]

I would have checked flop. Out of position, you should be checking just about 99% of your holdings on that kind of wet board.

I wonder about this. A checked flop out of position here with 678 suited showing could in many cases result in a check back from villain. That would only be advantageous if your K9 hand was presumably slightly ahead or behind and you wanted to limit your ability to get felted. I think in your case betting the flop is the right call because:

1. Villain has a smaller stack than you, so their actions are much more polarizing
2. Many times you win the pot right away with a board like that, even on a pure bluff
3. If Villain caught any piece of the board and decides to stick around, you are committing them to the pot without committing yourself
4. You have a close to nutted hand with redraw to the nut straight flush
5. Against unknown players and player tendencies you gain some equity when they have to decide if you're bluffing them on the flop because they don't have any hand-history-context to inform their decisions.

---

If building the pot is the goal then you got everything you wanted minus the outcome. If protecting your loses was the goal then I can imagine betting smaller on the flop (pot was about $43), maybe a bet of $40 or $50 which sees a raise to $100-$120 allows you to fold or maybe flat call and fold turn.

Either way, decide before you bet if there are any conditions that would get you to fold and don't think twice after you decide either way.

 

[FordPickup92]

I play fairly regularly, probably 50ish cash games in the last 18 months there, and tournaments as well. I very rarely show hands , unless I'm giving a guy a break and showing he made a good lay down. The guy this hand was against has never played with me before and had only seen me for about an hour, over which I showed zero hands.

I was a little low... 65 visits in the last 12 months... Is..is that too many? Lol

View attachment 1142585

I was just curious. Obviously showing more or less hands never guarantees folds or calls, but it may slow your opponent down with a wider range and a regular group. On the flip side unfamiliar players have a chance of being equally willing to call or fold with no knowledge of hand history. I can't comment on the play here, I make alot of my decisions in the moment and not being present makes my input mostly irrelevant. I can say thats a tough hand to fold, especially in a cash setting. However the fact that you mentioned the villian "looks like the guy that's wants to win it" may cause consideration to be willing to lay down the second nuts. Not that image necessarily is a deciding factor at the table, but if you have limited knowledge with this player and vice versa, he's willing to put half his stack in on the flop is pretty confident. Sure, he could be over valuing a weaker hand or merely bluffing, but nothing about your description feels that way. Again, I don't think you played the hand wrong in any way, with the flop having multiple outs in your favor. But the way it reads certainly feels like we're second best the whole way

 

[aaron2786]

But the way it reads certainly feels like we're second best the whole way

Eh, I'm not sure how you figure that. Everyone has face tons of monotone flops, and when you flop the second nuts with a redraw for the absolute nuts, you're rarely going to be behind. If you're finding that fold, I'd commend you, but then I'd say you're way over folding in a cash game too. I mentioned his bet "looks like we wants to win it on the flop". More often then not that's going to suggest against the nut flush, after all, the chance of a straight flush running out on him is insanely low

 

[allforcharity]

I'm sure I would have lost this one, too.

 

[aaron2786]

After the hearts flop, I don't see myself getting away from this at all, especially with the providing 2 backup outs.

I've folded kings preflop a bunch of times too. It's a second-nut hand, sure, but you have the benefit of the pot being smaller to start, and the cases for a fold are usually when a very tight, passive player 4-bets (or more), or multiple tight players are all making very strong moves such that the chance no one has aces is slim.

In this spot, Villain could have a lot of hands. There's no realistic way to narrow his range down to an ace-high flush. He could have any flush, a naked , the with a pair, a straight with or without a heart, or even a set. And those are just the reasonable hands. You're even the preflop aggressor, so he may have interpreted your bet as a mere c-bet and decided to make a play against you on a scary board with nothing.

The only play I can see going differently to save you is preflop. You're in worst position with K9s, with only $1 in (i.e., it costs you almost the full bet to call).

Why 3-bet? Why even get involved?

'cause cash game. 'cause degen life. 'cause I over value my playing abilities LOL

 

[Jimulacrum]

'cause cash game. 'cause degen life. 'cause I over value my playing abilities LOL

Fair enough.

 

[FordPickup92]

Eh, I'm not sure how you figure that. Everyone has face tons of monotone flops, and when you flop the second nuts with a redraw for the absolute nuts, you're rarely going to be behind. If you're finding that fold, I'd commend you, but then I'd say you're way over folding in a cash game too. I mentioned his bet "looks like we wants to win it on the flop". More often then not that's going to suggest against the nut flush, after all, the chance of a straight flush running out on him is insanely low

I am way more aggressive in tournament than I am in cash. Hence why I said my input is mostly irrelevant. There's a few folks who have seen my play regularly here on the forum, and I think they would say the same. I have made some very conservative folds in a cash setting, some for the better, some where I held the best hand with second or third nuts and was pushed off the pot too easily

 

[MrRossKeys]

Eh, I'm not sure how you figure that. Everyone has face tons of monotone flops, and when you flop the second nuts with a redraw for the absolute nuts, you're rarely going to be behind. If you're finding that fold, I'd commend you, but then I'd say you're way over folding in a cash game too. I mentioned his bet "looks like we wants to win it on the flop". More often then not that's going to suggest against the nut flush, after all, the chance of a straight flush running out on him is insanely low

Not to nit-pick [proceed to nit-pick]....

...but you said it correctly in your first post when you said "second nut flush." Here you did not flop the 2nd nuts. You actually flopped the 16th best hand if you include every possible straight flush and higher flush.

Realistically, knowing that you have the K and 9 blockers, you can safely believe you have the 3rd best possible hand:

1. 45h best possible hand that beats you / less likely for villain to have based on pre-flop action

2. Any Ace high flush beats you

3. King high flush wins as long as 1 and 2 aren't what villain has AND the turn and river don't pair the board.

More reasons to think you're probably good here... just a tough loss that is mostly unavoidable.

(I'm sure you knew all of that already. /Semantics.)

 

[aaron2786]

Not to nit-pick [proceed to nit-pick]....

...but you said it correctly in your first post when you said "second nut flush." Here you did not flop the 2nd nuts. You actually flopped the 16th best hand if you include every possible straight flush and higher flush.

Realistically, knowing that you have the K and 9 blockers, you can safely believe you have the 3rd best possible hand:

1. 45h best possible hand that beats you / less likely for villain to have based on pre-flop action

2. Any Ace high flush beats you

3. King high flush wins as long as 1 and 2 aren't what villain has AND the turn and river don't pair the board.

More reasons to think you're probably good here... just a tough loss that is mostly unavoidable.

(I'm sure you knew all of that already. /Semantics.)

You, uh, you fun at a lot of parties? Lol I'm just kiddin

 

[JustinInMN]

Hero (yeah me) sitting in the SB, folds to the HJ who limps $3, Villain on the Button raises to $10. Context, our local room rarely goes to a flop that small, and most hands have at least an open to $18 to $25, so I try and go gentle for a caller. I look down at K9HH, click to $20, HJ folds, button flat calls.

I don't think K9s is strong enough out-of-position to deliberately downsize to get a call. Honestly, if you are going to 3-bet here, I would be going for a size that gives you a chance to just pick it up against villain's weaker opens, especially if you think the button has a wide-steal range here. Taking it down pre with K9s out of position should be looked at as a good result. Getting a caller isn't bad, but the bigger they call (especially with inferior holdings) the bigger the mistake villain is making.

That said, it's a little different to be first in with a raise as villain and making a smallish-raise over a limp. I'm probably not going to give villain as wide of a range as I would if he were first in. He probably has at least medium strength so maybe just a flat with K9s is better. I don't hate the raise though either, other than the mentality that we usually want a call from button, I don't think that's true. We want button to fold at least some of his range if we are raising here.

I show the K9HH for the second nut flush and the up/down straight flush draw.

Villian turns up A10HH for the nut flush and turns my up and down redraw into a one outter for the 5 of hearts. Board runs out Q of clubs, 5 of ....diamonds. ouch.


Does anyone get away here or is that always a loss? I'm a guy that's folded pocket kings pre, knowing a guy had Aces, I'm very tight and aggressive for most of my play.. I just don't see a different way of playing that one.

If you made the decision to play K9s preflop (and I am good with that, to be clear even if we dispute call vs raise or raise sizing) you are also deciding to play for stacks when you hit a flush. If you aren't willing to play for stacks when you catch this flop, there is no point in playing it pre. In other words, part of your decision preflop is understanding you are taking your medicine on this particular cooler when it comes up.

 

[aaron2786]

If you aren't willing to play for stacks when you catch this flop, there is no point in playing it pre.

Well I was, hence the action that followed. I had him covered roughly 2:1 and made the all in push first, I'm sure he still calls it off with any aceXH combo, but the fact that he's holding the 10, blocking the 9TH possiblity gives him extra reason to call it off. Also, he's putting me on all the exact same possible hands I'm putting him on. He happen the ahead hand when we pushed, I was the only one with a chance to come over the top. It worked out for him. We all wanna be in the winning spot, but hey, that's the game, everyone has to be second best at some point

 

[kmccormick100]

First off - you're usually gonna get stacked (or doubled through) on a monotone flop with the K high flush vs nut flush if the board runs out non-paired and non heart, so let's get that out of the way.

To critique your play:
- Preflop I think flatting with the K9hh is fine, folding is fine and 3betting is fine, but it's not a strong enough hand to try and entice people to come along with - if you're 3b you're wanting to take down the dead money or isolate to 1 player max, $20 is rarely going to do either, I'm making it about $40-50 with a hand that's tough to play OOP
- By my math, you overbet $65 into ~$40 after the rake - why are you trying to "take down" the pot with a pretty nutted hand? You want all of the straights, sets, two pairs, flush draws and inferior flushes to come along. A more std line is betting something like 33-60% here, keeping in a lot of worse hands.
- When you go 1.5x pot on the flop and V raises you to $145 leaving $140 behind, he's not trying to take down the pot, that's barely a min click - he's trying to figure out how to get your money in. Him going all-in is the only play that has fold equity with say a flopped set, straight or two pair - this min raise of an overbet just shouts strength - if there's ever a spot to get away from this hand, this would've been it, but your overbet pretty much pot committed you.