Hey that’s just common sense and decency. I’m sure I’d do the same if I had the extra cash on hand. But that’s a huge difference from running a cashless game.
Cash Game How I Bank at a Home Game in an Increasingly Cashless Society (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter ArielVer18
- Start date
This is the common sense answer for cash only games that several of us mentioned way back in this thread.
All y'all just like to argue.
merkong
3 of a Kind
I know but I’m his thread is long.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
LOL at the nearest ATM on the mountain.
I'll bring plenty of cash to Denver, and my phone with whatever app is needed to Sweden. Everybody wins.
bergs
Straight Flush
Cash is king.
CONUS4EVAH
CONUS4EVAH
slisk250
Straight Flush
2 miles away at KS! Bring some ice on the way back!
ArielVer18
Flush
People who are complaining this is too complicated are most likely veterans to hosting home poker and handling a cash only bank is like swimming or riding a bicycle to them. Many procedures may have been internalized and memorized to the point that doing them correctly is instinctual and requires no thinking at all. However, cash handling is a life skill that is rarely taught in school.
For example, take holding onto a wad of cash. How does one keep it organized? For US bills, most people will have a variation of this: two fat stacks folded in half held together with a rubber band or a hair tie with all bills face the same direction and the large denominations on the outside. One stack will have $100s, $10s, $5s, and $1s; the other stack will have $20s (most commonly used denom) on the outside and uncommon denoms on the inside (if you get troublemakers who bring $50s and $2s).
How about counting cash in front of someone? Do you lay out the bills face down so that the denomination is easily visible and arranged in a certain way? Will a third person, if asked, be able to quickly visually count your arrangement of bills?
I'll add a summary section to the OP when I draft up a more articulate paragraph. Essentially, cash-only method boils down to "cash for chips; chips for cash." Cashless is "record all chip buy-ins; leave with your profits or pay for your losses with a single transaction." My hybrid system is a combination of these two banking methods.
For example, take holding onto a wad of cash. How does one keep it organized? For US bills, most people will have a variation of this: two fat stacks folded in half held together with a rubber band or a hair tie with all bills face the same direction and the large denominations on the outside. One stack will have $100s, $10s, $5s, and $1s; the other stack will have $20s (most commonly used denom) on the outside and uncommon denoms on the inside (if you get troublemakers who bring $50s and $2s).
How about counting cash in front of someone? Do you lay out the bills face down so that the denomination is easily visible and arranged in a certain way? Will a third person, if asked, be able to quickly visually count your arrangement of bills?
I'll add a summary section to the OP when I draft up a more articulate paragraph. Essentially, cash-only method boils down to "cash for chips; chips for cash." Cashless is "record all chip buy-ins; leave with your profits or pay for your losses with a single transaction." My hybrid system is a combination of these two banking methods.
I'm early 50s / mid Gen X and play with people 35-75. Anyone older than me is all cash. Anyone my age or younger is fluent in all the payment methods, but we always still do cash. We are close enough of a group that we could just run a ledger and settle up at the end, but I would hardly recommend other games do that.
bergs
Straight Flush
Is everyone cool with a host (and possibly others) knowing exactly how much you’re up and down over a single session and a period of time with the ledger approach?
I couldn’t care less, but I’ve seen people in the past a bit miffed by it.
I couldn’t care less, but I’ve seen people in the past a bit miffed by it.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I keep pretty detailed records/stats of our games. People seem to really like it. Before most games I select one player at random and provide a detailed analysis of their record, which I present directly to them (I believe they share it, but that's up to them). On two occasions, players have left and then called to make sure I didn't toss it out, because they wanted to bring it home.
It seems to me that most people think they are worse than they really are. Sort of like how everyone remembers the bad beat they received, but seldom remember the donk play that won them a pot. Remember the bad, forget the good.
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We run a cash only game. While most of the group doesn’t seem to care (of course, if you pay attention for the evening you pretty much know what people bought in for and what they cash out for) we do have a couple peeps who like to try and hide that amount.
Jimulacrum
Flush
I keep my cash organized from smallest on the outside to largest on the inside. If there's any bill that I have a ridiculous pile of, I'll set aside a wad of it (e.g., $50 in ones or $500 in twenties), but otherwise it's all one roll. I'd prefer a small till if it's handy, but that's not always an option.
All bills facing the same way. Outermost bill of decent quality so I don't have an old crumply bill getting smooshed around in my pocket.
When I count out, I count the bills down onto the table like a bank teller, in piles of $100 or whatever makes sense.
Jimulacrum
Flush
I've never hosted a cashless game live. I've been hosting on a Mavens site since the pandemic, though, and that's of course cashless.
I start everyone with the same amount of credit, let the night play out, and use the resulting balances to make a payment structure that gets everyone back to zero. Then I reset all balances to the default and send out an email that looks like this, only to the players involved:
If there's anything that requires a decision (e.g., which way to round 0.50 to make it all zero out), I flip a coin or draw a card or whatever. Same way I decide to who has to make more payments than the others, like Jackie and Bobby here, if it's necessary to do so.
Honestly, it's not bad. Once I got a good method down, I could knock this out pretty quickly. Importantly, it keeps my digital hands off the money. No one pays me and I pay no one, and I like it that way. (I've been taking a break from the game, so I'm not even involved as a player anymore.)
All this said, I consider e-payments a stopgap measure for a very specific problem. If I'm playing a live game, I'm cash in, cash out all day. A few other users have already articulated my concerns quite well.
I'm very interested to see how the new IRS rules with regard to reporting for peer-to-peer payments will play out in the coming months. I hear a lot of talk about people using F&F payments instead of business, but I wonder how much that will matter.
Be a hell of a thing to have to tell the IRS that all that money coming in and out isn't income, but you acting as the bank for an unlicensed gambling event every Wednesday for the past year.
I start everyone with the same amount of credit, let the night play out, and use the resulting balances to make a payment structure that gets everyone back to zero. Then I reset all balances to the default and send out an email that looks like this, only to the players involved:
If there's anything that requires a decision (e.g., which way to round 0.50 to make it all zero out), I flip a coin or draw a card or whatever. Same way I decide to who has to make more payments than the others, like Jackie and Bobby here, if it's necessary to do so.
Honestly, it's not bad. Once I got a good method down, I could knock this out pretty quickly. Importantly, it keeps my digital hands off the money. No one pays me and I pay no one, and I like it that way. (I've been taking a break from the game, so I'm not even involved as a player anymore.)
All this said, I consider e-payments a stopgap measure for a very specific problem. If I'm playing a live game, I'm cash in, cash out all day. A few other users have already articulated my concerns quite well.
I'm very interested to see how the new IRS rules with regard to reporting for peer-to-peer payments will play out in the coming months. I hear a lot of talk about people using F&F payments instead of business, but I wonder how much that will matter.
Be a hell of a thing to have to tell the IRS that all that money coming in and out isn't income, but you acting as the bank for an unlicensed gambling event every Wednesday for the past year.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Any reason as to why you round the fracs? I understand rounding fracs to avoid the need for coins, but when cashless it seems like you aren't avoiding anything, except 2-3 keystrokes.
Nine_high
Pair
This is exactly what I do too. Cash for chips. I also live 5 minutes from several ATMs so that's always an option.
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
I don't really like it being put on a running ledger. Its not hard to know who is winning or losing on a particular night or over a number of nights just based on how many rebuys they have vs their cashouts.
Cash only. No one has every used a payment app to my knowledge. Short of cash? Someone will usually lend you what you need. We never "play on the books."
I'm part of a casual group that has been playing very low buy-in weekly (live and online) NLHE tourneys since 2003. We have a POY each year, and we maintain a web site with detailed stats on every player, including Mavens logs with hole cards.
I have no problem with this - it's the nature of the group, the stakes are so low as to be practically meaningless, and it's fun to needle players about their stats and be able to review Mavens hands after the fact.
OTOH, I'm not a fan of cash game ledgers. There's not a good reason I can think of for a host to maintain a ledger, and I prefer to be the only one who knows exactly how much I'm up/down long term.
bergs
Straight Flush
He has a proprietary rounding system that he’s very, very proud of.
Sal Bandini
Pair
What's with all this ledger and logging bs? So if I want to go cashless I have to keep spreadsheets, get a laptop, get some pen/paper, dust off the slide rule, find fresh batteries for my HP-41CX? I thought cashless was the same as cash but in electronic form, but apparently not. Now I have to track everyone's transactions.
If I buy in your game for $50 and give you cash, you count it and hand me $50 in chips. If I Venmo (how did that become a verb?) you $50 you immediately see it on your phone, acknowledge it and hand me $50 in chips. When I cash out we count my stack and you either give me cash or Venmo me the money, either of which I confirm before I leave. No ledger or "Settled" or whatever other nonsense is needed. You also don't care what player owes another player, etc. Player pays host, host pays player, just like a bank or casino.
Venmo is supposed to be so simple and replacing cash, so treat it like that. Do you Venmo your friend for a lunch or bet you made and then have to create a ledger for that? No, you see it on your phone and it's settled. This thread should really be called "How to complicate buying in and cashing out in a home game."
If I buy in your game for $50 and give you cash, you count it and hand me $50 in chips. If I Venmo (how did that become a verb?) you $50 you immediately see it on your phone, acknowledge it and hand me $50 in chips. When I cash out we count my stack and you either give me cash or Venmo me the money, either of which I confirm before I leave. No ledger or "Settled" or whatever other nonsense is needed. You also don't care what player owes another player, etc. Player pays host, host pays player, just like a bank or casino.
Venmo is supposed to be so simple and replacing cash, so treat it like that. Do you Venmo your friend for a lunch or bet you made and then have to create a ledger for that? No, you see it on your phone and it's settled. This thread should really be called "How to complicate buying in and cashing out in a home game."
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Some of you must just be a barrel of fun, and it shows .
This thread is literally for "what you can do if you run/need/want to run a cashless game". The OP literally says avert your eyes if this isn't your thing. Cue every single person who doesn't want to do this in their home game posting.
Regarding the tabulations, I get some people not wanting their business jotted down on paper. But as you've said, there's not a ton to that argument as host and players can easily tabulate that throughout and at the end of the game, and if they wanted to track that they could. For those of us who care enough to spend thousands on chips, to go over the game selection via text for a week before playing, that look forward getting cards in the air - it's kind of cool to have a history of that.
Your first name, last name, ssc, and driver's license aren't on the ledger. And I think it's pretty fun to have a history and to say oh shit, yeah let's play this instead because we played such and such last time. Or, oh hell I remember I had to put like $10 in the swear jar that weekend.
I don't have a personal take. If someone is hosting, I do what the host says. If I'm hosting, I do what the players want. Life can be so much easier when you're flexible....
.This thread is literally for "what you can do if you run/need/want to run a cashless game". The OP literally says avert your eyes if this isn't your thing. Cue every single person who doesn't want to do this in their home game posting.
Regarding the tabulations, I get some people not wanting their business jotted down on paper. But as you've said, there's not a ton to that argument as host and players can easily tabulate that throughout and at the end of the game, and if they wanted to track that they could. For those of us who care enough to spend thousands on chips, to go over the game selection via text for a week before playing, that look forward getting cards in the air - it's kind of cool to have a history of that.
Your first name, last name, ssc, and driver's license aren't on the ledger. And I think it's pretty fun to have a history and to say oh shit, yeah let's play this instead because we played such and such last time. Or, oh hell I remember I had to put like $10 in the swear jar that weekend.
I don't have a personal take. If someone is hosting, I do what the host says. If I'm hosting, I do what the players want. Life can be so much easier when you're flexible....
Sal Bandini
Pair
Your first name, last name, ssc, and driver's license aren't on the ledger. And I think it's pretty fun to have a history and to say oh shit, yeah let's play this instead because we played such and such last time. Or, oh hell I remember I had to put like $10 in the swear jar that weekend.
Why are you punishing beneficial behavior?
https://www.amazon.com/Swearing-Good-You-Amazing-Language/dp/1324000287
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We don't. My wife came home to cook dinner for our players, so we had little ears around for a little over an hour.
This was just a fun side game to play. If this was for the game, it would be significantly higher than $21!
Jimulacrum
Flush
Personal preference, mainly. I never bother with change in live poker, so I carried that philosophy over to my club when I started it up. Rounding is super-fast and makes it a little easier to sort out the payments.
The players seem to be happy with it. I've even had a request to round to the nearest 5 instead of 1.
Jimulacrum
Flush
Patent pending.
Jimulacrum
Flush
In theory, yes, a service like Venmo should make the process as simple as cash, minus the physical passing of rectangles.
In reality, there are many risks involved that don't exist with cash—specifically taxes, e-wallet policies, and (probably to a lesser degree) criminal codes.
The ledger system minimizes all of these risks, inasmuch as you can minimize them when you're choosing to create an electronic record.
It may be more complicated on its face, but it's a lot less complicated than dealing with the funds getting frozen or having to deal with a mess in your taxes.
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
After some more thought on this I actually dont want to know exactly how much someone is up or down in my game. Would make me start to feel bad for some of them
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Oddly, the only stat we do not track is "how much" any player has won or lost. In theory, it could be calculated but it would not be an easy endeavor. Stats work better for tournaments than cash games, and cash games are limited to no more than once a year.
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